Red dot draws to low prob targets

[GJM]

I put some stuff in the Acro thread, and realized this might be better in its own thread.

As people are getting started with the red dot, a common perception is that the red dot is slower for them than iron sights. Two possible reasons are that the shooter is having trouble quickly acquiring the dot, and/or they (mistakenly) believe they have to hold the dot steady in the center of their target area, rather than just releasing the shot when the dot is moving somewhere in the scoring area. My current belief is that, for me:

1) the dot is as or almost as quick on shots that can be made with just slide reference on an iron sight pistol.

2) the dot is substantially faster (with an equivalent level of accuracy) on full size targets ten yards and out.

3) the dot is substantially faster on small targets like a two inch dot from five yards and out.

Earlier, I posted some video drawing to an eight inch steel at 25 yards, aiming for a one second draw. I realize that might be a problem for some, based on not having steel targets, or not having that distance available where they shoot. Another way to practice the same concept is to shoot smaller targets, like two inch dots, at reduced distances like five yards. I like five yards with two inch dots, for working grip and fast trigger prep, because going to 7 and 10 yards, turns it into more of a bullseye exercise.

Today, was the first day I got to do a whole trigger control session with the CZ P10F, and I had the good fortune of being able to go to the range twice. Here is what a five yard exercise looks like.



I mentioned in the video that I do a mini, compressed press out, and that is consistent with both JJ’s 90/10 rule, and his distinction between shooting attack and control targets. Brief digression — JJ divides targets into attack and control. Attack targets you basically shoot as fast as you can, and control targets you shoot using whatever sights and trigger you need, without regard to time. As to the 90/10 rule, he uses that for a lot of shooting, but it is basically you haul ass for 90 percent of the distance, and use the remaining 10 percent to carefully do what needs to be done for that phase of activity.

Two inch dots are definitely control targets for me. So with that in mind, I try to react to the beep and get my hand to the pistol as fast as I can. I come into the pistol from the side, but use my thumb to come over the slide and trap the pistol against the rest of my fingers lifting from below. The thumb over the slide is what differentiates it from a scoop draw, and allows me to control the pistol, and not toss it down range.

This is what that looks like.







From this position, I move the pistol as quickly as I can to this position, at which point the 90 percent is over.





The last ten percent is most important in terms of making an accurate shot, and I decelerate the pistol while prepping, picking a point on the target that allows for offset, extend both my arms, and fire the shot without regard for time. Here is where I end up.




Hopefully this helps!

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Great stuff GJM!

What do you mean by "picking a point on the target that allows for offset"?

[GJM]

Great stuff GJM!

What do you mean by "picking a point on the target that allows for offset"?

The mechanical offset between the barrel and red dot. At five yards, I am holding in the upper 1/3 of the two inch dot to account for my offset with a 25 yard zero.

[1Rangemaster]

@GJM, I sincerely appreciate your sharing your hard work and thinking on the red dot sights. It’s been very valuable to me as I begin my journey with dots.
Quick question: do you have any reflections on draws and multiple shots to “high probability” or large targets? I would think the dot position would(could?) be anywhere in the display, but oriented on target area(?) I’m thinking 6-8” circle,3-5 yards. A little “tactical” Timmy”, but I was curious. Or is it a matter of slide/optic index?
Thanks in advance

[GJM]

@GJM, I sincerely appreciate your sharing your hard work and thinking on the red dot sights. It’s been very valuable to me as I begin my journey with dots.
Quick question: do you have any reflections on draws and multiple shots to “high probability” or large targets? I would think the dot position would(could?) be anywhere in the display, but oriented on target area(?) I’m thinking 6-8” circle,3-5 yards. A little “tactical” Timmy”, but I was curious. Or is it a matter of slide/optic index?
Thanks in advance

I want to see at least a streak of the dot on the target. Waiting to see the dot requires you to be patient, but does not add much time, while offering big accuracy benefits. With the size of the window, it is easy to shank a C or D hit even on a close target, if you don’t use the dot.

The only time I am not using the dot is when my dot has broken, at which point I rely purely on index.

This is a drill where I am forcing myself to be patient, and wait for the dot, even though I am pushing speed.

[1Rangemaster]

Thank you. Another comment of yours I will add to this discussion is that even if the dot is not a “perfect” one(e.g., I have slight astigmatism), it’s not critical. Currently, I see a slight “star”, but the hits are there where I want them. I would say that’s somewhat analogous to not having “perfect” sight alignment.

[GJM]

I have some muzzle up in my presentation, that I have been fighting for the last ten years. See below.



Getting rid of that is worth some time improvement.

[GJM]

I spent some time, again, trying to get the muzzle up tip, out of my presentation, and was rewarded with a draw that was slower and less accurate. Probably requires further study.

[RyanM]

Thank you for the details and visuals.

Are you not rolling through the trigger like a revolver but rather prepping and pressing?

[Bart Carter]

I spent some time, again, trying to get the muzzle up tip, out of my presentation, and was rewarded with a draw that was slower and less accurate. Probably requires further study.

At my last TPC class, Rossen Hrisov (excellent instructor) gave me some feedback that helped me immensely with having the dot on target at the end of the presentation. He said that when you have your grip at the holster, you also have your firing hand canted at the proper angle you need at the end of your presentation. Keep that angle from holster to the end of the presentation. How true that is for me. If I do this, looking at my target and going for my NPOA, the dot is just there every time.

Of course, I know you cant your holster a little differently from me, so I don't know how that may affect your final cant.

Thank you Tactical Performance Center.