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Thread: When it goes bad....

  1. #71
    I'm a brand new member, so I'm a little worried that people will jump to the conclusion that I'm a friend or associate of Rob Pincus who came on here to defend my buddy. I'm not. I've never met or spoken with Pincus, in person or in any other way, and I have no association with any of his businesses or training products. However, I have read a book by Grant Cunningham, who I believe is associated with Combat Focus Shooting. The book is this one here. (Taking the 'no association' thing to its limit: I didn't even buy this book. I borrowed it from the library. )

    All that set up is to say this: Cunningham describes a drill called "balance of speed and precision," the point of which is to teach you to shoot faster and make a bigger group--or else to shoot slower and make a smaller group--depending upon the (wait for it) balance of speed and precision you're showing. So, suppose you're shooting at an area target of 4x6 inches. You're at 5 yards, and you put a group on that index card that measures less than 2". This would be a sign that you need to speed up. The target is 4x6, not 2x2, and if you're shooting an unnecessarily small group, that means you're shooting much slower than you need to. So speed up and make good hits, but make those hits within your 4x6 zone, not within a tiny sub-zone. Flip side, if you're shooting 8x8, then this drill will tell you to slow down and make more precise shots.

    In other words, the whole point of the drill is to try to teach you to pursue the proper balance of speed and precision, based on the situation you find yourself in.

    Needless to say, I have no idea what Rob Pincus was trying to convey when he told the OP to speed up and shoot bigger groups. But to me, it sounded like maybe what he was getting at was something like what I described above. And that doesn't sound like it necessarily conflicts at all with what some of the recent posters in this thread have been advocating.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by ST911 View Post
    I see the "spread out your shots" stuff coming from...


    Poor shooters, esp LE instructors, that can't deliver any more precision than that. They usually say "combat" a lot.
    .
    This.....this is so full of truth it brought a tear to my eye.

    I've introduced B8 repair centers to the younger cops here. Some have really taken off on training with them.

    Good stuff.

  3. #73
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    I hope that this leads to more posts here:

    Industry Best Practices

    Unfortunately my admonishments to refrain from making it a wish list or a bitch list kill the thread. Apparently it’s no fun to talk about what everyone else is doing right.

  4. #74
    Finely tuned athletic machine Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwt16 View Post
    This.....this is so full of truth it brought a tear to my eye.

    I've introduced B8 repair centers to the younger cops here. Some have really taken off on training with them.

    Good stuff.
    Same here. The B8 replacement center really opens a lot of eyes on the range, esp when I have shooters run the 10/10/10 drill, on demand.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post
    Same here. The B8 replacement center really opens a lot of eyes on the range, esp when I have shooters run the 10/10/10 drill, on demand.

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
    Yeah, "The Test" from duty rigs has been a "Oh, I do suck" eye opener. I think it is designed to run from "ready gun" but when you add the hooded Safariland rigs we use to the mix, it really causes a lot of fail to those that don't train their draws. Then, after their 4-5 second first shot from the draw, they panic and run wide open to try to get the next 9 pieces of brass on the deck.

    I had a student show up late yesterday so I ran "The Test" from my duty rig and my first shot was 2.00 BUT was a solid X. I played around with first shot from the draw and got it down to 1.4 range but I'm having to get on the trigger at press out....which, in my line of work...may not be conducive to covering suspects as I don't want to develop a training scar and shoot someone that don't need to get shot. Fine line I gotta run there...trying to get faster AND safer AND more accurate.

    But that's training.....something we as an agency are horrible at. We are supposed to be getting G45s in November and have been promised a whole 100 rounds to "familiarize" ourselves with the new pistol as well as new holsters.

  6. #76
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwt16 View Post
    I had a student show up late yesterday so I ran "The Test" from my duty rig and my first shot was 2.00 BUT was a solid X. I played around with first shot from the draw and got it down to 1.4 range but I'm having to get on the trigger at press out....which, in my line of work...may not be conducive to covering suspects as I don't want to develop a training scar and shoot someone that don't need to get shot. Fine line I gotta run there...trying to get faster AND safer AND more accurate.
    I'm not LEO, but I believe it is enormously important to create a clear distinction (both in intellectual understanding, AND physical practice) between drawing to fire as soon as possible having already made the decision to fire while the gun was still holstered (and absent a change in circumstances during the draw), and drawing to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register having made the decision to draw (which in many circumstances is going to constitute a threat of deadly force) but not having made the decision to fire yet. There need to be two distinct neural pathways for those two separate and distinct actions, especially because they both stem off the same physical motion of drawing (usually) to at least position 2.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    I'm not LEO, but I believe it is enormously important to create a clear distinction (both in intellectual understanding, AND physical practice) between drawing to fire as soon as possible having already made the decision to fire while the gun was still holstered (and absent a change in circumstances during the draw), and drawing to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register having made the decision to draw (which in many circumstances is going to constitute a threat of deadly force) but not having made the decision to fire yet. There need to be two distinct neural pathways for those two separate and distinct actions, especially because they both stem off the same physical motion of drawing (usually) to at least position 2.
    Yes indeed. I really don't think I am the type to fare well in prison so I have started running the timer for smoothness rather than the first shot on target as fast as possible. Then, once in a while, I'll run one flat out for speed just to see how I am doing. Basically, I'm trying to mix up drills and tossing in "no shoot" targets once in a while just to keep myself cognizant of the fact that I've pointed weapons at a WHOLE lot more people than I've actually shot at.

    There is a part of me that does really love to see a tenth or two shaved off of my times here and there....and I've got to watch that like a hawk.....and keep my ego in check so I don't try to push the envelope on safety in the work realm of things.

    I just got back from my private access range working with a coworker and coaching him on trigger press issues. Great shooter but there's room for improvement. This was the first time he has shot with someone running a timer on him and he said it was a learning experience. His B8 repair center work is coming along nicely as well. I also ran him on shoot/no shoot targets, IDPA targets, B8 sized steel at 25 yards, B6 target, etc. FAST, SuperTest, Test, 5X5 drill, Hateful 8.......even set up some barricades for pieing and shooting.........most ran on the timer to show him where he needs to work. Great time on the range.

    Regards.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    I'm not LEO, but I believe it is enormously important to create a clear distinction (both in intellectual understanding, AND physical practice) between drawing to fire as soon as possible having already made the decision to fire while the gun was still holstered (and absent a change in circumstances during the draw), and drawing to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register having made the decision to draw (which in many circumstances is going to constitute a threat of deadly force) but not having made the decision to fire yet. There need to be two distinct neural pathways for those two separate and distinct actions, especially because they both stem off the same physical motion of drawing (usually) to at least position 2.
    Great post. I will opine that one learns that through quality FOF that varies the circumstance of a possible target. I recall a run at the NTI where my partner, came out of the run - saying - Glenn, I shot my son.

    He was hiding in the bath tub to avoid the bad guys.

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Moylan View Post
    Needless to say, I have no idea what Rob Pincus was trying to convey when he told the OP to speed up and shoot bigger groups. But to me, it sounded like maybe what he was getting at was something like what I described above. And that doesn't sound like it necessarily conflicts at all with what some of the recent posters in this thread have been advocating.
    Just stumbled onto this thread.

    I get what you are saying, but, I think the point you are missing is that if you are going to charge folks to impart your knowledge, you need to be able to lay a contextual foundation for what you are doing.

    If you can't drill down to why you want someone to do something, you probably ought not be teaching it, especially to adult learners.

  10. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Just stumbled onto this thread.

    I get what you are saying, but, I think the point you are missing is that if you are going to charge folks to impart your knowledge, you need to be able to lay a contextual foundation for what you are doing.

    If you can't drill down to why you want someone to do something, you probably ought not be teaching it, especially to adult learners.
    I don't know from this thread whether Pincus attempted to give a contextual foundation for the "speed up" thing or not. The OP didn't really say an awful lot about it. So you could well be right that Pincus did a terrible job of explaining his own "balance of speed and precision" approach at the class the OP attended.

    David Yamane wrote a pretty nice set of posts about his experiences with Pincus a couple of years ago, including a pretty solid discussion of Pincus on accuracy: sounds like his views on accuracy/speed are central to this whole class. So I would have guessed he'd give a foundation in it. But like I said, I've never been to a class or whatever, and have no knowledge of my own. I just didn't like reading people appear to be lumping Pincus in with "anywhere on the paper works" instructors, when my impression is that's not at all his bag.

    https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....method-part-1/
    https://gunculture2point0.wordpress....and-precision/
    Last edited by Moylan; 09-29-2019 at 03:09 PM.

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