Value of Pistol RDS vs other things

[Darth_Uno]

It doesn’t automatically make you a better shooter. It just helps you be a better shooter.

I haven’t shot a match in a good while so I can’t gauge it anything by that. But I could tell right away that I was better at longer shots (15+ yds or so), and after some practice finding the dot I’m faster on multiple targets (steel). The biggest advantage to me is that for years, and even now, I would always try to see over my sights and look at the target. With an RMR, that’s eliminated. Just look at the target and put the dot over it.

You’re probably going to be just fine if you live your whole life without an RDS, but there’s no reason not to get one either.

[ASH556]

I shot 113 rounds through the ACRO today on a new GEN 5 MOS G19. It was a 180 rnd session total with 55 of the other rounds put through my other new GEN 5 MOS G19 confirming Ameriglo irons zero, and then 12 rnds through my G45.

Honestly at this point I'm inclined to go with Option #3. My 25yd groups were a bit tighter with the ACRO gun, but I struggled hard on closeup speed work like draw - 2H @ 7yds and Bill Drills.

At this point for me an RDS on a fighting gun would be a liability unless all the bad guys are at least 25yds away. Hmmm.

[1Rangemaster]

Not a criticism, but a recommendation: I would give it more rounds and time, to include dry fire. Does the ACRO replace my irons? Nope, still got BOLDs on G26, irons on G43, fiber optic on a 17, gold bead on another 17, XS on a snub, etc., etc.
For me, the ACRO has definite, measurable benefits. I’m working on single hand shooting dry firing every other day. My primary carry piece has an ACRO with a Streamlight forward.
Keep shootin’!

[karmapolice]

I shot 113 rounds through the ACRO today on a new GEN 5 MOS G19. It was a 180 rnd session total with 55 of the other rounds put through my other new GEN 5 MOS G19 confirming Ameriglo irons zero, and then 12 rnds through my G45.

Honestly at this point I'm inclined to go with Option #3. My 25yd groups were a bit tighter with the ACRO gun, but I struggled hard on closeup speed work like draw - 2H @ 7yds and Bill Drills.

At this point for me an RDS on a fighting gun would be a liability unless all the bad guys are at least 25yds away. Hmmm.

That is not enough rounds to properly evaluate at close up distances. Also I know you are most likely hunting for the dot as in focusing on the dot, rather than the target and letting the dot appear in your vision. With some practice in a short time your speed will be back as I know you also have a legitimately good index on your presentation. Imagine how many repetitions you have on irons vs the dot, again the transition won't be hard because you are already a solid skilled shooter.

[Caballoflaco]

With a dot imagine that your front sight is attached to a 25 yard long dowel that’s taped to your slide. The negative is you have to be more precise to get the sights lined up.

The positive is that practicing presentations with the dot will only make your iron sighted shooting better and faster, not take anything away, since it requires more precision in the presentation to get the dot in the window.

[ASH556]

And here we go. I'm not going to say "I've got it" yet, but it's definitely better than yesterday. Basically trust the index, confirm visually, press the trigger cleanly. I am still chasing the dot some, but it's significantly less than yesterday and just a slight vertical dip instead of all over the place. 70 more rounds fired today, 59 of which were focused on draws and close speed stuff.

20 reps draw to 8" circle @ 7yds. See that little cluster around the "-0?" That's called getting it right!




10 reps draw to "head" @ 7yds.




Then I worked through some segments of the Gabe White tests. The 2H is where I could never quite get there. I'm not sure if it's trigger or sight tracking, but I'm thinking more sight tracking since it's purely vertical.




Here's the whole target with all the times. All the misses were just like the 2H runs above where they were just below the scoring area:




And then of course I had to shoot at least one 25yd group. Almost hit that 100 today dangit!

There’s (and I’m sure you realize) an offset. Might be worth a few rounds slowfire on a dot or paster to “see” that...

[ASH556]

@1Rangemaster

Some offset, yes, but not that much. Not sure if this corresponds to the low hits. I'm still thinking there may be some dot chasing. 10 shot Freestyle groups @ 7yds. Iron-sighted G45 vs G19.5 + ACRO:



ACRO @ 25 trying to hold on the gray square (crappy execution, 4" spread)




B8's with both for comparison:

[1Rangemaster]

A very valuable line @GJM said to me one time was “Don’t worry about dot movement-as the dot moves into the target area, work the trigger”,(something like that). Seems simplistic, but I think he’s one of our “field experts” around here, and it was a bit of an epiphany for me. When I dove into dots a couple of months ago, that really helped.
The 25 yard bull with ACRO looks good. I read somewhere, right ammo, Gen5 guns are sub 3”@25. IMHO, one would need to fire the gun off sandbags/rest to approach the “mechanical accuracy”. That said, I’d be happy with that 25 yarder...

[ASH556]

Having confirmed the offset and zero yesterday, I pushed speed again today on draw 2rds to 3x5 @ 7yds, and then some Bill Drills. I tried to measure the same exercises across the following 3 platforms for comparison:
1. G19.5 + ACRO
2. G19.5 w/Ameriglo's (that yellow front/operator rear I've posted before)
3. G45 w/Dawson adjustable Tritiums

Here's a table showing the cumulative performance. The numbers in blue are the average of the clean runs and the number below that is the average with the unclean runs included:



Broken down with visuals the runs look like this:








Bill Drills:



That one baaaarely out with the iron-sighted G19 hurt me:


Anyway, here are some summarizing thoughts now that I'm a whole 260 rounds into shooting with an ACRO and a total of 450 rounds this week (YIKES!) I think the pistol-mounted RDS definitely offers some advantages and is not nearly as difficult to work with up close at speed as the naysayers have purported. Not saying there's not a learning curve, but basically in 3 range sessions, my draws and sight tracking are at least equal to my iron sight stuff. At 25yds, the RDS shows some opportunity for improvement over iron sights as well. Even if you have good eyesight (I've only had one vision test that I can recall, it was several years ago and I had to go to an eye doctor because of an infection in my eye due to some fiberglass insulation that fell into it while I was installing a new attic staircase for my in-laws. Anyway, my infected eye, also my dominant eye, tested 20/20 with the infection present and my non-dominant eye tested 20/15.) the dot can be a big help in aiming at distance because (1) it is not as sensitive to lighting conditions as iron sights, and (2) you can see the whole target with the dot superimposed, so you can see your actual hold better, and (3) you're only worried about 2 planes (dot and target) instead of 3 planes (front sight, rear sight, target).

Now, all that said, I don't think (at least not for me at this time) the pistol-mounted RDS is a "sell your soul" level game changer. If you have bad vision, it probably is. If you have disposable income, it certainly makes some things easier. However, it's not so next level that I'm willing to give up what I would have to (in my case, my 3rd pistol) to do it. I still have a pair of MOS guns, and so down the road if I have the disposable income I may be inclined to give it another go, but for now, I'm at a point where I'm ready to be done fiddlefucking with gear and simply focus on building skill. I'd rather have twin G19's (one for carry and a backup) and my G45 (main training/competition gun) than just the 19's + one of them wearing an RDS. Further, I'm not someone who carries a gun for a living. If I were, maybe my priorities would be different. However, as it is, concealment is of a higher concern that a little more shooting performance; hence the 19 over the 45 to begin with. Adding a dot to my 3:00 IWB carry is going in the wrong direction. Maybe once I finally get in shape and can carry AIWB that issue will disappear.

So, to summarize in a sentence: I'm not saying "no" to Pistol-mounted RDS's; just "not right now."

Feel free to judge, critique, criticize, etc. There is a part of me that kind of wants the "new hotness" of it, but I think reality says I'm better off continuing to work my ass off with irons.

[Doc_Glock]

So, to summarize in a sentence: I'm not saying "no" to Pistol-mounted RDS's; just "not right now."

Feel free to judge, critique, criticize, etc. There is a part of me that kind of wants the "new hotness" of it, but I think reality says I'm better off continuing to work my ass off with irons.

I tried Red dots a few years back when I was not nearly as good a shooter as now. I saw no benefit. I am at the point where I have plateaued in my skills and think the coaching of a dot would improve and refine my trigger press further. Seeing my misses is extremely helpful, and I don't see enough of my misses with irons. It is not a sell your soul issue to me as I see and shoot irons fine. But I think the ACRO will pull me back.