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Thread: Streamlight To Introduce New Switching Option TLR-7 & 8 Lights

  1. #51
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    ^^^^^
    Good stuff.





    This is interesting, as I have no problem using, and greatly prefer, the SLS and/or ALS for an exposed OWB holster.
    I was able to use the SSIII well, but not the level III Raptor.
    I fall into the short thumbs category. I can use the ALS/ALS guard combo just fine. With an SLS, I cannot get the hood rotated forward far enough to clear the rear sights 100% of the time.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I fall into the short thumbs category. I can use the ALS/ALS guard combo just fine. With an SLS, I cannot get the hood rotated forward far enough to clear the rear sights 100% of the time.
    If you hit it right, you should only have to push straight down. I suspect not having been taught this is why I see so many cops with the hood down. I need to do a picture tutorial.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
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  3. #53
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    If you hit it right, you should only have to push straight down. I suspect not having been taught this is why I see so many cops with the hood down. I need to do a picture tutorial.
    I agree. I have numerous recruits with very small hands and have never seen one not able to release the SLS when Corte t technique is used. I think part of the problem for many is that they attempt to grip the gun first and then release the hood.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    If you hit it right, you should only have to push straight down. I suspect not having been taught this is why I see so many cops with the hood down. I need to do a picture tutorial.
    This ought to suffice.



    Watch closely from the front angle. Instead of hitting the center of the thumb shelf, and pushing it down and then forward, hit the rear corner with your thumb and push straight down. the hood will bottom out and then go forward. It helps to put a drop or two of your favorite gun oil in the mechanism and work it back and forth a bit from time to time.

    This should also leave your thumb perfectly positioned to activate the ALS afterward. I find the exact same movement to work with the ALS guard, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I agree. I have numerous recruits with very small hands and have never seen one not able to release the SLS when Corte t technique is used. I think part of the problem for many is that they attempt to grip the gun first and then release the hood.
    I wasn't aware of a name for the technique...just something I figured out for myself. And yes, the hood should be released as the hand comes down to establish the firing grip, not after the grip is established: As the hand comes down to the holster- 1) release hood as hand hits backstrap. 2) Establish master grip. 3) Defeat ALS as pistol is drawn.

    As an aside, this type of sequence allowed me to use the SSIII well. I defeated both snaps as my hand came down on the grip, which rocked the pistol back as I established my master grip and then drew. I was not successful with the Raptor due to needing to maintain middle-finger pressure against the spring.


    I hope this makes sense.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  5. #55
    Site Supporter CleverNickname's Avatar
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    Are the new versions going to have a different SKU so it's easier to order the correct version?

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by CleverNickname View Post
    Are the new versions going to have a different SKU so it's easier to order the correct version?
    Are the new models shipping yet?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #57
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    This ought to suffice.



    Watch closely from the front angle. Instead of hitting the center of the thumb shelf, and pushing it down and then forward, hit the rear corner with your thumb and push straight down. the hood will bottom out and then go forward. It helps to put a drop or two of your favorite gun oil in the mechanism and work it back and forth a bit from time to time.

    This should also leave your thumb perfectly positioned to activate the ALS afterward. I find the exact same movement to work with the ALS guard, too.




    I wasn't aware of a name for the technique...just something I figured out for myself. And yes, the hood should be released as the hand comes down to establish the firing grip, not after the grip is established: As the hand comes down to the holster- 1) release hood as hand hits backstrap. 2) Establish master grip. 3) Defeat ALS as pistol is drawn.

    As an aside, this type of sequence allowed me to use the SSIII well. I defeated both snaps as my hand came down on the grip, which rocked the pistol back as I established my master grip and then drew. I was not successful with the Raptor due to needing to maintain middle-finger pressure against the spring.


    I hope this makes sense.
    Lol... that is not the name... that is Apple auto correct for “proper technique”. Hopefully I am better at drawing from a holster then I am at typing on an iPhone.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    Lol... that is not the name... that is Apple auto correct for “proper technique”. Hopefully I am better at drawing from a holster then I am at typing on an iPhone.
    I, too, have been thusly abused on numerous occasions.
    "It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
    -Maple Syrup Actual

  9. #59
    Site Supporter KevH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDep View Post
    I think that no answer is 100% right 100% of the time, so I think people can have different preferences and opinions. Some may train for and prefer the toggle switch for specific reasons (NVGs, need for minimal light signature, etc) and when I trained with Mike Pannone that was his preference. He has a very solid experience and skill set and it works for him and his level of training. I think it would also work for someone who would dedicate their training to the methods he teaches.

    In contrast, my department has done a semi-formal study involving WMLs and I’ve had the opportunity to observe thousands of law enforcement officers of various levels of experience, motivation, and training, and by a very large margin, WMLs get used under stress when they have a pressure switch. When they have a toggle switch they don’t...like almost not ever. Stats and such from the study... 82%+ activation of a pressure switch under stress... a whopping 0% activation of toggle switches.

    I do agree that milking the grip to activate the light is a bad thing, and I do think that training is necessary. A good pressure switch and technique shouldn’t necessitate a perfect grip, and with training, practice, and experience it should be very intuitive. It is not as reliable as the light and I’ve broken two DG switches so I get it, but it’s way more reliable for uniformed cop use than 0% activation under stress (from a statistical training perspective).

    Add to the issues with toggle switching for uniformed cop use... If I offered you a pistol that worked great with a two hand grip but became practically un-useable one-handed you’d all say I’m nuts, but toggle switching is un-useable one- handed save trigger-finger activation which is haha-level impractical under stress and a massive increase in potential for unintentional via negligent discharge.

    What’s awesome about all this is that executive level of most departments would rather deal with their people killing an innocent person in the dark, so they can argue “reasonable in light of totality of circumstances and experience and training/Tenn vs Garner” than actually evaluating and emphasizing low light performance, equipment, and training to avoid the death of an innocent.

    Further, companies like Safariland have jumped on board with this misguided and short-sighted view. I am still absolutely and thoroughly pissed off over two different conversations at SHOT 2019 with Safariland reps who will remain un-named, one of which involved them screwing up me trying to explain benefits of their own holsters as an option for our deputies. Light companies like Streamlight and Surefire have made massive strides in Compact WMLs, but the market has been driven by ignorance and liability fear... which has only created more liability potential.

    But hey... it’s only a matter of shooting the right... or wrong person in the dark.
    Spot on.

    I've come to the conclusion that there is no current setup with a WML on a handgun where you can have your cake and eat it to. No matter which setup you use it is a form of compromise.

    My own agency (and the ones around me) have suffered a myriad of ND's due to finger activation of the toggle switch, especially when the officer/deputy operates the gun one handed (which in the real world is frequent) and uses their trigger finger to actuate the light. DG switches can help mitigate some of the ND potential, but come with their own set of issues, such as white light ND's and some of the issues addressed in the Force Science study I assume you are referencing in one your posts.

    To the "this sounds like a training issue" folks out there...perhaps. But the reality is that my own department does 4 to 8 hours flashlight activation training every year on the range...and we still have issues. How much time do you think the average citizen shooter is going to spend on low light training shooting in near darkness and low light settings? How many people have access to a low light/ no light range to practice on? We have been pounding into guys' heads for over 10 years not to use your trigger finger to actuate the switch yet people still do it.

    In 2011, while working in the dark every night as a K9 handler, I decided to switch from carrying a 1911 to a Glock 17 with a Surefire X300 and DG switch attached riding in a Safariland 6360. I made the choice because I wanted to be able to hold a dog, point a gun, and point a flashlight all at the same time, all whilst having the maximum amount of ammo available before having to reload and having the lightest recoil possible to make one handed shooting easier. I spent an inordinate amount of time both dry-fire and live-fire training (much more than the average person will probably commit) and became somewhat proficient with this setup and used it until the 2017. Still, I experienced enough white light ND's and other issues that once I was no longer a handler I ditched it and haven't looked back. I just prefer a less complicated setup. For me, having the gun and the flashlight separate and learning to shoot them together is more efficient (I spent way too much time with a Surefire Z2 and Rogers-Surefire method when I was a newb) and solves most of the problems for both on-duty and off-duty carry.

    The rocker switch to me is problematic for uniformed patrol period since the user will almost inevitably actuate it with their trigger finger at some point since the reality is that we often need to perform other tasks while having our gun drawn (keying a shoulder mic, looking under a bed on a building search, tossing something to a partner, etc.). We can say "well just don't do that, but the reality is that people likely will.

    The DG and SL switches seem to offer a better solution, but are not without their own problems, which must be recognized if one plans to use them. I think they are currently the answer if you are going to run a WML in a patrol environment.

    I agree that target identification is paramount and while I know these days it's not sexy, I'll just stick to a flashlight in my off hand.

  10. #60
    Member SoCalDep's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses everyone! I think it’s important not to get stuck thinking my paradigm is the only thing that is/can be right.

    I think it’s probably appropriate to clarify some things and maybe make some people mad.

    The study I referenced is not public and was conducted internally by my department (and done by me at the direction of my supervisors) which confirmed what we, as less than 20 instructors, unanimously observed while teaching between 11,000 and 13,000 student spots per year (some of those are rifle classes or don’t comprise night/low light, so caviat emptor, grain of salt, at your own risk, and such). Toggle switches may get used prior to the conflict (ie: searching), and can possibly be used during stress, but are almost NEVER used during stress.

    The Force Science article is bullshit. We called them out on it in a training class and they had no response. I like much of what they do, but that was pure lack of context. If I hand an untrained person a gun with no supervision or instruction... bad things can happen. If the pilots die and I had to take over an airliner and land it in the Hudson, people ‘gon die. That doesn’t mean training can’t make a responsible gun handler or competent/ exceptional pilot. There are training methods that mitigate pressure switch drawbacks and maximize returns... like not shooting family members in the dark... that happens ALL THE TIME, compared to the two incidents cited by Force Science, and the applicability of those two incidents are debatable because from what I have been told, one didn’t involve a pressure switch- I question whether the full details were even known to Force Science when the article was written. Maybe I’m wrong and if so we can debate.

    The report I mentioned was done by the civilian oversight organization for our department. It claimed that the increase in unintentional discharges was largely due to adopting a striker fired pistol and, specifically, the use of a pressure switch for the WML. In reality it had more to do with a lax safety culture, lack of frequency in training, and to an extent a lack of training at all. Most of those issues were being addressed well before the report was written and the issues have been, by and large, rectified. The report was written by people who simply didn’t understand the issue and I will be VERY kind and assume that they simply misinterpreted the statistics rather than purposefully manipulated them for an agenda.

    So...

    Study = me
    Report = watchdog group “maybe” with an agenda
    Article by Force Science = not so sciency.

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