I would agree with you about CT's light output, but the point of the exercise was the switch placement.Originally Posted by nalesq
As to the thickness of the housing body, this CT unit looks like, if anything, it might push the hand down from the trigger guard a bit, but not necessarily affect the grip itself. And this is coming from someone that tried out Streamlight's contour switch...completely ruined my grip on my G23.3.
Last edited by Chuck Whitlock; 05-28-2019 at 12:08 PM.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
It is my belief that CT's light switch design on this model was precisely to not interfere with the switching on their Lasergrips.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
I see what you’re saying - looking at the CT unit again, I agree that it would probably not mess up one’s firing grip as badly as the Streamlight product does.
I would be concerned though that the under trigger placement of the CT switch would either be too sensitive to unwanted activation; or alternatively, if the switch is relatively insensitive, it would not activate as instinctively by reflexive tightening of the grip in preparation for shooting, as it would were it located more vertically along the grip.
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Putting TLR-1 paddles on this thing would be nice...
If the Crimson Trace grip activation for the light is the same as their lasers, it has minimal affect with guns with thin grips. However, I did not like it on a Glock.
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I'm not a fan of pressure switches. I've seen them fail more than the lights do and I think turning the light on/off by having a perfect grip is asking for trouble. I also think "milking" the grip to activate the light can lead to issues.
I think it's hard to beat a streamlight TLR1 for advanced low light gun fighting because the momentary on is so easily reached and held with a regular firing grip.
I think the X300U is a better switch for less advanced shooters who just need to get the light on and leave it on and won't be thinking about turning it off and throughout. I do think the X300U switches are a little stiff though and hard to reliably activate on the draw.
I think that no answer is 100% right 100% of the time, so I think people can have different preferences and opinions. Some may train for and prefer the toggle switch for specific reasons (NVGs, need for minimal light signature, etc) and when I trained with Mike Pannone that was his preference. He has a very solid experience and skill set and it works for him and his level of training. I think it would also work for someone who would dedicate their training to the methods he teaches.
In contrast, my department has done a semi-formal study involving WMLs and I’ve had the opportunity to observe thousands of law enforcement officers of various levels of experience, motivation, and training, and by a very large margin, WMLs get used under stress when they have a pressure switch. When they have a toggle switch they don’t...like almost not ever. Stats and such from the study... 82%+ activation of a pressure switch under stress... a whopping 0% activation of toggle switches.
I do agree that milking the grip to activate the light is a bad thing, and I do think that training is necessary. A good pressure switch and technique shouldn’t necessitate a perfect grip, and with training, practice, and experience it should be very intuitive. It is not as reliable as the light and I’ve broken two DG switches so I get it, but it’s way more reliable for uniformed cop use than 0% activation under stress (from a statistical training perspective).
Add to the issues with toggle switching for uniformed cop use... If I offered you a pistol that worked great with a two hand grip but became practically un-useable one-handed you’d all say I’m nuts, but toggle switching is un-useable one- handed save trigger-finger activation which is haha-level impractical under stress and a massive increase in potential for unintentional via negligent discharge.
What’s awesome about all this is that executive level of most departments would rather deal with their people killing an innocent person in the dark, so they can argue “reasonable in light of totality of circumstances and experience and training/Tenn vs Garner” than actually evaluating and emphasizing low light performance, equipment, and training to avoid the death of an innocent.
Further, companies like Safariland have jumped on board with this misguided and short-sighted view. I am still absolutely and thoroughly pissed off over two different conversations at SHOT 2019 with Safariland reps who will remain un-named, one of which involved them screwing up me trying to explain benefits of their own holsters as an option for our deputies. Light companies like Streamlight and Surefire have made massive strides in Compact WMLs, but the market has been driven by ignorance and liability fear... which has only created more liability potential.
But hey... it’s only a matter of shooting the right... or wrong person in the dark.
While it is stuck in a specific product thread, I think this has the potential to be a great software thread, where we do the deep dive into best practice for using a weapon mounted light.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Are you referring to sympathetic response and the potential for NDs, or something else?
Can you speak more to what training is given to those officers who use WMLs?
Off the cuff, this sounds 100% like a training issue.
My hypothesis: The 82% that use the pressure switch are doing so because of sympathetic response, not because they're actually meaning to. The lack of activation via switched lights is because they're not actually trained to use them, but rather sort of just given the lights (or authorized to purchase?) without any significant training beyond a fam.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
To start, I largely agree with you, but It drives me nuts when someone says “100% training issue”. I feel like that is a complete dismissal of reality. EVERYTHING is a training issue. As Ernest Langdon once told me (paraphrased); 10% could be handed a S&W model 10 and they’d make it work. 80% need training and good equipment to perform to the standard and 10% would poke themselves in the eye if you gave them a sharp pencil.
The reality is that no one trains enough. I train a lot and I still don’t find it very hard to push myself outside the boundaries of my capabilities. While we don’t train enough, particularly in law enforcement we have to train in a wide variety of skills, each taking time from other necessary skills. When it comes to WMLs in particular, and understanding the general lack of time for low light training, one must look at goals and expectations.
Goals
What are we actually looking to accomplish? What is the purpose of a light attached to a gun? When will we need to use it, and under what circumstances would it’s use be necessitated?
Now we could go all Surefire Institute and say that lights are for navigation, communication, threat identification, etc., and all this is true, but WMLs also accomplish something significant that is rarely discussed - they help us hit the bad guy... not because of aiming with the light but because now we can clearly see our sights and target. I have numerous reports from actual shootings where use of the WML actually prompted the deputy’s internal voice to say “oh look at that... there are sights on my gun”. In that same study/experiment I mentioned in the prior post we found a clear increase in accuracy from those using a WML (and remember, the only ones who did were using pressure switches).
In my mind, the primary priority of goals for WML use is threat identification, threat management, and combat accuracy. As another trainer says; “If I can see it I can solve it”. Now, all of these priorities exist under stress and in (frequently) dynamic situations that are “tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving”. So with that in mind, what seems like a better option... a light that activates automatically upon a reactive draw or a light that requires a deliberate, conscious act in addition to the regular draw stroke? Training maybe part of the equation for pressure switch versus toggle switch, but if someone is using a toggle switch equipped pistol (no pressure switch) and isn’t practicing to activate it every single time they draw, light or dark, there’s a very very very high likelihood that light won’t be there under stress. When I say I’ve seen it 1000 times, that’s probably a very very low estimation. I’ve seen highly trained people forget or de-prioritize the toggle under stress.
Expectations
I think it’s important to understand the difference between levels of students. Many cops get great training but they aren’t motivated, pay only enough attention to get by, and don’t train to ingrain and maintain skills. I think some of the best trainers must be good motivators, especially if working in law-enforcement. It’s something I’m constantly trying to work on and get better at. By and large, if given the option as soon as the unmotivated student sees that activating the toggle switch during daylight hours slows them down, makes passing the test less likely, and provides no immediate advantage in daylight, they won’t do it. If not punished in the class they won’t do it in the class. They certainly won’t do it after the class. Conversely, some students are sponges. They take the information, practice it, and are constantly looking for more. These motivated students would likely practice activating toggle switches during every draw.
I won’t say that a person can’t use a toggle switch and I won’t say that no one can land in airliner on the Hudson river. That said, for the investment of training hours, intuitiveness and ease-of-use, and the fact without even having to think about it the three prioritized goals of threat identification, threat management, and combat accuracy are all supported by automatic activation of a pressure switch. Sully is a bad ass, but there’s a reason why they were trying to find a runway. Sometimes it’s the stakes and the odds.
Appropriately, tonight I’ll be out with another group of academy recruits – training them how to use their weapon mounted lights during their first low light range session. I’ll do another post describing in more detail the training that we conduct for the use of weapon mounted lights but I’m typing all of this on my phone through voice prompt and teeny screen buttons And if I do something to erace all this I think I might die. Please forgive the typos and what are probably mildly amusing auto correct phrases.
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