"Standard" Pistol Training/Testing Distances: Origins?

[1Rangemaster]

Interesting information from 41magfan. From my experience, going back to the 1970s, the 7 yard line was a part of the PPC course (which has several variations itself). Cooper notes that early competition rules dictates a competitor @7 shoot”one handed, from the hip”. High probability that “Jelly”Bryce influenced this style. Prior to the late ‘50s, military training generally was “bullseye”, notable exceptions being Sykes/Fairbarin and others prior to WW2. They specifically eschewed competition, but wrote about training with targets close(3 yards).
JMHO, but I think the distance between drivers side car doors “back in the day”was an influencer(7yards). The distance appears in the first PPC matches in the 60s, and many ranges were built because the range personnel were PPC competitors.
I have little to contribute about 15&25 yards, except to note they are distances specified in PPC. Cooper specified 10 yards for the “El Presidente”. In the 70s in US IPSC, shots were rarely closer than 7 yards. The South West Pistol League pushed shots out to 100 yards(!) rarely, and there were some shots at 50 in LE quals/PPC. Cooper and others stated that a competent shot should be able to deliver a “center” hit@25 yards in 2 to 2.5 seconds from the holster-so that reinforced the 25 yard “long range” distance. Further reinforced by US Special Operations personnel recommending transitions to handgun(from long gun)25 yards and in if long gun out of service.
Karl Rehn of Austin TX has done a study on courses and gear and he might contribute.

[Tom Givens]

I’m sure the Tueller Drill largely influenced the seven yard thing.

The other way around. Dennis did his testing in the late 1990's. At that time, the standard close distance was 7 yards, almost no police range had a 3 or 5 yard line at that time. Since 7 yards had been the standard since the 1930's, Dennis picked that as his benchmark.

[Jay Cunningham]

The other way around. Dennis did his testing in the late 1990's. At that time, the standard close distance was 7 yards, almost no police range had a 3 or 5 yard line at that time. Since 7 yards had been the standard since the 1930's, Dennis picked that as his benchmark.

Interesting info.

I wonder though if that seven yard “standard” we see so very often today in training is from the chicken or the egg?

[41magfan]

Here's some more interesting evidence that the influences and requirements were varied and ever-changing .....

In the early days of the FBI's formalized training and qualification (1934) Agents were required to complete the following on a monthly basis:

Handguns
10 rds slow-fire from 15 yards
10 rds slow-fire from 25 yards
10 rds rapid-fire from 15 yards (two strings of 5 rds in 12 seconds)

SG
5 rds from the 25 yard line

Thompson SMG
10 rds slow-fire from 25 yards
10 shot burst from 25 yards

30-06 BA Rifle
10 rds from the 200 yard line

[1Rangemaster]

Interesting to see the shotgun, subgun and rifle work-thanks, sir!
Mr. Givens is correct in that the range did his testing on had the 7 yard “sidewalk” in front of the target line. Tueller did his experiment with SLC personnel, and they were using revolvers out of “duty” rigs(leather, of all things). I seem to recall they were of the advanced thumb break design(!) He wrote it up for SWAT magazine. Tueller today says something to the effect of 7 yards is a bare minimum; he’d like more distance, obstacles,etc.
To the OP: my opinion again, but 7 yards seems to be where marksmanship fundamentals come into play(or one shot many rounds “from the hip”-not recommended-to establish a kinesthetic relationship, like Bryce). There may have been range considerations also: a little safety from splash back and adherence to the myth that “one can’t miss up close”(2,3,4 whatever) which is demonstrably false.

[Clark Jackson]

Interesting points and I appreciate @Tom Givens clarifying the 21-Foot-Rule. I knew the 7-yard "standard" existed prior to Tueller, but I didn't (and still don't) know why. One of the things that prompted me to start this thread was Tueller and the muddied history of the 7-yard standard. If you ask 10 people shooting any drill or test at 7-yards and ask them "why" I would wager the majority will say "21-foot-rule" and the remaining won't know or really don't care.

I appreciate the feedback on the different distances and it seems pretty clear the military influenced the FBI and NRA with the 15 & 25 yard lines. It makes sense.

My question is now focused on the 7-yard standard.

Where did 7-yards come from and why 7-yards vs. 10-yards as the standard?

I find it curious that Cooper used 10-yards for his standard with El Prez, but 7-yards supplanted it.

There has to be a reason(s) that drove the standard in one direction over the other. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that it was simply an arbitrary decision.

I like to think our shooting forefathers were - like serious shooters today - critical thinkers who tended to avoid arbitrary standards.

[1Rangemaster]

I don’t have any more information on the “why”of the 7 yard line at the moment. I can tell you that Jeff Cooper writes of designing the “Advanced Military Modified” Course early in his formal shooting activities (1960s-perhaps prior) and the closest firing line is 10 yards in that course. It goes back to 50 yards. Bianchi Cup starts at 10 yards also.
As for the “Prez”, Cooper specified 10 yards, with a yard edge to edge between targets. It was initially a graduation “exercise” for Central American security personnel. It is still used at GUNSITE as an exercise/evaluation(@10yards). I have not shot a USPSA match for several years. I’d speculate if the distance has changed to 7, it was so folks could “hose” faster, FWIW. A side note: the original “Prez” had a “par time” of 10 seconds. A shooter who cleaned it back in the day got some recognition/respect. I’m sure there are folks here at PF who could get close to cutting that in half. I would also opine the vast majority of LE personnel and CCW folks would find it, shall we say, challenging...

[Wayne Dobbs]

I’m sure the Tueller Drill largely influenced the seven yard thing.

Not correct. We were using (and focusing on) 7 yards before Dennis wrote the article.

I believe much of the 3/7/10/15 yard line emphasis in LE firearms came from FBI and other LE organizations who looked at shooting incidents and noted that we were having OIS incidents grouping at those general distances. The first two distances representing face to face and initial patrol encounters and others being automobile and across the front yard storms. 25 and 50 yard shooting (and we did both for many years), came from Bullseye and PPC influences.

[Hambo]

Not correct. We were using (and focusing on) 7 yards before Dennis wrote the article.

I believe much of the 3/7/10/15 yard line emphasis in LE firearms came from FBI and other LE organizations who looked at shooting incidents and noted that we were having OIS incidents grouping at those general distances. The first two distances representing face to face and initial patrol encounters and others being automobile and across the front yard storms. 25 and 50 yard shooting (and we did both for many years), came from Bullseye and PPC influences.

IIRC, going back to the '80s there were a lot of articles about the average OIS distance being seven yards. Tom Givens' data for his trainees is 3-5 yards.

[Tom Givens]

I have done a lot of research into this over the years, and I stand by the assertion that 7 yards was selected, first by the FBI then widely copied, as a simulation of the width of a large room. I was on the road the last few days, but now I’m back in my personal reference library.

I have the US War Department’s 1913 issue (hard cover book) “Small Arms Firing Manual”. For the Mounted Pistol Course (Cavalry) the distances specified are 8-15 yards, 10 yards, and 5-15 yards. For the Infantry and Field Artillery troops, the specified distances for training and qualification are 15,25, 50 and 75 yards. For the Organized Militia (forerunner of the National Guard) the specified distances were 15,25 and 50 yards. So, the 7 yard line did not originate with the military.

In J. Henry Fitzgerald’s 1930 book, he recommends the New York State Police Pistol Qualification Course, “which has been in use for several years”. The specified distances are 10 feet, 12 yards, and 25 yards.

I have photos of the original FBI pistol ranges at Quantico. (The original ranges were replaced a few years ago.) The firing lanes are concrete, to avoid the mud so common at Quantico. The paved firing lines are at 7, 15 and 25 yards.

In his 1960 book, Combat Shooting for Police, Inspector Paul Weston, NYCPD, has this to say:
“Hip shooting is meant for what might be termed ‘room sized’ situations. It is effective within the confines of a small store, a narrow hallway, any room, or when what appears to be a harmless traffic violator piles out of his car and starts a gun moving in the direction of the approaching policeman."

In determining the distance at which directed fire from the hip should be practiced, the Federal Bureau of Investigation settled upon seven (7) yards for this phase of their fine Practical Pistol Course. That’s twenty-one feet. Pace off any room, store, or hallway, and learn just how far- or rather how close- seven yards seems to be.”

In the book, An Introduction to Modern Police Firearms, by Roberts and Bristow, published in 1969, mention is made that the FBI’s PPC changed from its original 60 round version to a 50 round version in 1949. The course description lists the first stage as being fired at 7 yards.

So, photographic record and numerous sources cite the FBI as the origin of the 7 yard distance, way back in the 1930’s and 1940’s, fifty years before Tueller’s work. I think Weston’s explanation of “room range” is probably pretty much it.