The Art and Science of Keeping Your 1911 Running

[farscott]

So this seems as good a place as any to ask this: what keeps the same thing from happening to the entry level 1911s coming in from the PI, Turkey, etc? Is it better materials or the faith that most of them will only see a few hundred rounds a year at best?

I "assembled" a .38 Super RIA builders kit several years ago and while the barrel required some fitting (mainly hood length IIRC) it definitely was NOT a gunsmith barrel. AFAIK they're the same components used on the assembly lines so I'm guessing the tolerances are spec'ed out at "good enough for semi-skilled labor to assemble with an absolute minimum of fitting required".

I believe the root cause of the Norinco issue is the frame rails are too high, forcing the slide high. The result is less lug locking surface and/or the barrel rides the link. That combined with the softer barrel steel leads to the lug setback. The gunsmith barrel uses the fact that the barrel has excess material used to fit a barrel to a pistol to solve the issue; the other way to fix it it is to lower the frame rails. That is a lot more work.

The Norinco barrel is actually good; it is about as hard as a Mil-Spec WW II barrel is. The issue is that the barrel was not fit to the pistol. The slide is much harder than a Mil-Spec slide. So while a Mil-Spec pistol may have worn both slide and barrel lugs together during initial firing and engaged all three lugs to improve fit, the Norinco slide just moves the soft barrel steel and has engagement on only two lugs.

I am going to drop a modern (with the dimple in the feed ramp) Colt barrel in and measure lug engagement and end shake. That will prove if the theory about the slide rails is correct as Colt usually has great lug engagement.

[03RN]

4"

Attachment 60195

I think she's broken. Everyone assures me 1911s are unreliable finicky guns. Im up to 500rds with no cleaning(I did just clean it though) with ball, gold dots, and a hundred of my swc/unique load and I haven't had a single malfunction.

I realize 500 isn't a big round count but ive been assured by the interwebz 1911s are only good for malfunction clearing practice.

Oh well

[JRB]

I believe the root cause of the Norinco issue is the frame rails are too high, forcing the slide high. The result is less lug locking surface and/or the barrel rides the link. That combined with the softer barrel steel leads to the lug setback. The gunsmith barrel uses the fact that the barrel has excess material used to fit a barrel to a pistol to solve the issue; the other way to fix it it is to lower the frame rails. That is a lot more work.

The Norinco barrel is actually good; it is about as hard as a Mil-Spec WW II barrel is. The issue is that the barrel was not fit to the pistol. The slide is much harder than a Mil-Spec slide. So while a Mil-Spec pistol may have worn both slide and barrel lugs together during initial firing and engaged all three lugs to improve fit, the Norinco slide just moves the soft barrel steel and has engagement on only two lugs.

I am going to drop a modern (with the dimple in the feed ramp) Colt barrel in and measure lug engagement and end shake. That will prove if the theory about the slide rails is correct as Colt usually has great lug engagement.

I have a Norinco 1911 that's a textbook example of this problem. Unfortunately, the stair-stepping is in both the slide and the barrel at this point, and given the frame rail height issue I'm still undecided on how to solve that problem. I was ignorant of the possible problem until I'd put around 300 flawless rounds through it. It likes the WC 8 round mags and three magazines of 230gr gold dots were surprisingly accurate and 100% reliable.

Any advice or input on what to do would be appreciated!

[farscott]

I have a Norinco 1911 that's a textbook example of this problem. Unfortunately, the stair-stepping is in both the slide and the barrel at this point, and given the frame rail height issue I'm still undecided on how to solve that problem. I was ignorant of the possible problem until I'd put around 300 flawless rounds through it. It likes the WC 8 round mags and three magazines of 230gr gold dots were surprisingly accurate and 100% reliable.

Any advice or input on what to do would be appreciated!

The slide lugs can be fixed and dressed with a lug iron. https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...n-prod783.aspx

Then fit an oversize barrel of your choice. I am partial to Kart as I do not like how 416(R) stainless alloy barrels fracture rather than bulge during an over-pressure event. Once that is done, the pistol will shoot low. The front sight will need to be filed to raise POI.

If you do not have the tools, any competent 1911 smith can do the work. And that may make sense as it is not economical to purchase the tools for one-time use. The Kart Xact tools and the lug iron are $100 before shipping. Add the cost of a barrel and the repair is closing on $300.

Another option is to purchase a complete upper made by Colt, Springfield Armory, or similar and run it on the Norinco frame.

A third option is to have a smith build a full custom on the slide and frame.

[JRB]

The slide lugs can be fixed and dressed with a lug iron. https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...n-prod783.aspx

Then fit an oversize barrel of your choice. I am partial to Kart as I do not like how 416(R) stainless alloy barrels fracture rather than bulge during an over-pressure event. Once that is done, the pistol will shoot low. The front sight will need to be filed to raise POI.

If you do not have the tools, any competent 1911 smith can do the work. And that may make sense as it is not economical to purchase the tools for one-time use. The Kart Xact tools and the lug iron are $100 before shipping. Add the cost of a barrel and the repair is closing on $300.

Another option is to purchase a complete upper made by Colt, Springfield Armory, or similar and run it on the Norinco frame.

A third option is to have a smith build a full custom on the slide and frame.

Thank you! Since I've got a decent automotive-oriented home workshop, I'm all about buying the tools to DIY - I really enjoyed those 300 rounds I've put through this gun, so other 1911's will probably happen anyway. Good tip about the Kart barrel, too.

The good news is that a previous owner of this pistol paid some money to have the slide dovetailed F&R and get some MeProLite night sights installed, but the tritium is long expired so I'd have no guilt about a new front sight post or new sights in general. My Google-fu is just struggling to ascertain exactly what type of sight dovetails have been milled into that slide since it appears MeProLite doesn't make these same sights anymore.

[Jason Burton]

RE: Radial lug set back...

In my experience there are two main causes for this, there may be others but these are common:

First - the barrel has end shake; meaning it has the ability to move fore and aft on the axis of the bore while the barrel is in the in battery position. During firing the slide moves reward and collides (crashes?) into the radial lugs on the barrel. After enough rounds the lugs on the barrel and/or slide being to displace material.

Second - as the barrel links down it is not able to drop far enough and thus the slide contacts the top edge of the radial lugs on barrel, eventually displacing material. This can be caused by a barrel bed that is too tall, however, if the barrel is not pulled from the slide at the right time the same result may be seen.

Most production guns don’t have barrels that are “fit”… they are made to a spec and are simply assembled into the gun vs. being fit. As such the first reason listed above is something that, to a greater or lesser degree, I’ve seen on many production guns and some semi-custom pieces as well.

[feudist]

RE: Radial lug set back...

In my experience there are two main causes for this, there may be others but these are common:

First - the barrel has end shake; meaning it has the ability to move fore and aft on the axis of the bore while the barrel is in the in battery position. During firing the slide moves reward and collides (crashes?) into the radial lugs on the barrel. After enough rounds the lugs on the barrel and/or slide being to displace material.

Second - as the barrel links down it is not able to drop far enough and thus the slide contacts the top edge of the radial lugs on barrel, eventually displacing material. This can be caused by a barrel bed that is too tall, however, if the barrel is not pulled from the slide at the right time the same result may be seen.

Most production guns don’t have barrels that are “fit”… they are made to a spec and are simply assembled into the gun vs. being fit. As such the first reason listed above is something that, to a greater or lesser degree, I’ve seen on many production guns and some semi-custom pieces as well.

Everywhere I read about 1911s I read the same thing: Everything has to be fitted, nothing is drop-in. How do they expect that to work?

Does that explain so many 1911 problems?

[newyork]

Which semi custom houses, Do properly fit their barrel?

[JonInWA]

RE: Radial lug set back...

In my experience there are two main causes for this, there may be others but these are common:

First - the barrel has end shake; meaning it has the ability to move fore and aft on the axis of the bore while the barrel is in the in battery position. During firing the slide moves reward and collides (crashes?) into the radial lugs on the barrel. After enough rounds the lugs on the barrel and/or slide being to displace material.

Second - as the barrel links down it is not able to drop far enough and thus the slide contacts the top edge of the radial lugs on barrel, eventually displacing material. This can be caused by a barrel bed that is too tall, however, if the barrel is not pulled from the slide at the right time the same result may be seen.

Most production guns don’t have barrels that are “fit”… they are made to a spec and are simply assembled into the gun vs. being fit. As such the first reason listed above is something that, to a greater or lesser degree, I’ve seen on many production guns and some semi-custom pieces as well.

Jason, where do current Colt guns land in your experience with your comments in mind? My stainless 2015-vintage Series 70 Repro seems pretty well put together. other than possibly some minor extractor tuning needed to avoid BTF.

Best, Jon

[farscott]

Which semi custom houses, Do properly fit their barrel?

In my experience with five-inch guns, Ed Brown, RRA, SACS, and Wilson properly fit barrels. Baer does not, using causing barrel springing. STI is hit or miss with barrel ramp angles and short chambers being issues.