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Thread: The Art and Science of Keeping Your 1911 Running

  1. #1681
    Site Supporter RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Right, so a specific question on recoil spring weights.

    Gun is a new 2022, 5" Springfield Garrison, in .45 ACP, stock parts except for a WC BP Ambi Thumb Safety added by my 'smith last month. I am currently using what I understand is a 16# standard SA recoil spring, as from the factory. All ammo to date has been a mix of Federal AE and S&B 230 FMJ. Ejection is ok; up and to the right, but I have no specific observations.

    My question is as regards to what will happen if I fit a WC 18# spring. The intent of fitting the stiffer spring is in anticipation of shooting +p and/or JHP ammo. My application for this gun is for "pin shooting", i.e. knocking off 2.5 lb bowling pins off a table set at 7 yards. I'm advised that it is preferable to use either JHP ammo or +p (or both) for maximum effectiveness. Setting aside whether that's correct (I believe it is, based on inputs I've received):

    Will there be an effects, adverse or otherwise, in fitting the 18# spring for the test of JHP/+p ammo, and then leaving that spring in the gun to shoot the FMJ for practice?

    I am guessing the 18# spring will make it harder to rack? And perhaps dampen felt recoil a bit? Anything else?
    Just wanted to update this question with some considerations based on input here and elsewhere.

    I'm finding out that the 1911 allows quite a bit of fiddling around with different parts and springs. Not only does the recoil spring affect recoil (duh) but also involved are the hammer (main) spring weight as well as the shape of the bottom rear of the firing pin stop, oddly enough.

    As a baseline, I am going on the assumption (trying to confirm with Springfield CS, direct) the gun has a 16 lb recoil spring and a 23 pound mainspring, and a radiused firing pin stop. Comparing the specifications for my preferred ammo options, Federal American Eagle 230 FMJ (AE45A) and Personal Defense HST 230 (P45HST2S), both cartridges are listed at 890 f/s and 404 ft lb of energy at the muzzle. So perhaps I don't need to be looking at a heavier recoil spring, just for shooting JHP.

    As to +p, I think "for me" the advantages are more theoretical than actual. I'll still need a center of mass hit on the pin, and having 10% hotter ammo isn't going to help me do that, despite having more momentum (mass x velocity). The additional wear in my gun I am not sure is worth it. And +p will increase my split times. Lastly, I can practice with AE and save the JHP for the match, Since the two rounds, AE and HST, have identical ballistics (providing my gun runs JHP, of course) once I develop an index where to hold my front sight dot (I have a Dawson FO installed), I can do that consistently.


    What was really interesting was the FPS, though, and the geometry effects of the flat bottom vs curved firing pin stop. The stock part in the Garrison is a rounded bottom. From what I can tell, a 5/64" radius was added by JMB to address Army concerns and lessen the force needed by GIs to rack an empty pistol in WWI? At any rate, I read some more articles and it appears the installation of a square bottom FPS (properly radiused and fitted) will delay the slide movement just enough to allow the bullet more time to exit, with a side effect of reducing perceived recoil...I may not be 100% understanding all this, but that's the impression I got.

    Based on that, I think at this point I'll leave the current main and recoil springs as is, and order a square bottom FPS to fit and install. I'm looking at either the EGW O/S or WC Bullet Proof part. I will then see how the gun tracks with that one change, THEN assess any recoil or mainspring changes, such as the below WC spring kit.

    https://shopwilsoncombat.com/SPRING-...ductinfo/324G/

    If the results are satisfactory, I'll get a box of the JHP and verify it runs. If that all works out, I should be on the way to an effective setup for pin shooting.
    Last edited by RJ; 11-15-2022 at 07:56 AM.

  2. #1682
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    I've tried a flat bottomed FPS and for me, it was a lot of extra work for not a lot of benefit...

    The 18lb recoil spring and 23lb hammer spring were much more significant in how the gun behaved. Ran everything from my light handloads to the 220gr Hornady +P critical duty

    Sent from my SM-A326U using Tapatalk

  3. #1683
    Well, the 1911 is shelved again. After I got my gun back from Springfield I noticed that the extractor was very loose and would rattle when shaken. Dummy rounds cycles through would regularly get stuck between the extractor and the upper part of the breach face instead of ejecting.

    Iíve been shooting the gun the last few weeks. About 400 rounds, including about 70 Gold Dots or Ranger-Ts. Zero malfunctions, and passed the 10-8 test, although some cases would have clearly weaker ejection. Shooting today, and I got another of the same malfunction for the first time.

    Round extracts from chamber, but appears to be torqued into the upper part of the breach face, where it narrows. Case is stuck on the extractor hook, with another round attempting to feed.

    Back to the Glock I go. Iím attempting one more time to fit a new extractor and slide stop to eliminate the chance of the extractor clocking. Iíve dumped way too much money into this gun in the last few years. For it to not run is just not okay.

    Planning on getting a Wilson BP slide stop and extractor. Any opinion on the Wilson vs egw extractor for a 9mm gun?

  4. #1684
    Slaughter Spherical Cows RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I'm looking at Brownell's page for Wilson 9mm 1911 mags.

    Which one is the preferred choice for say, a Colt Commander?
    Wilson ETM (the cheaper ones) are generally good.

    If they give you trouble just switch to Tripp Cobra Mags.

  5. #1685
    Slaughter Spherical Cows RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Just wanted to update this question with some considerations based on input here and elsewhere.

    I'm finding out that the 1911 allows quite a bit of fiddling around with different parts and springs. Not only does the recoil spring affect recoil (duh) but also involved are the hammer (main) spring weight as well as the shape of the bottom rear of the firing pin stop, oddly enough.

    As a baseline, I am going on the assumption (trying to confirm with Springfield CS, direct) the gun has a 16 lb recoil spring and a 23 pound mainspring, and a radiused firing pin stop. Comparing the specifications for my preferred ammo options, Federal American Eagle 230 FMJ (AE45A) and Personal Defense HST 230 (P45HST2S), both cartridges are listed at 890 f/s and 404 ft lb of energy at the muzzle. So perhaps I don't need to be looking at a heavier recoil spring, just for shooting JHP.

    As to +p, I think "for me" the advantages are more theoretical than actual. I'll still need a center of mass hit on the pin, and having 10% hotter ammo isn't going to help me do that, despite having more momentum (mass x velocity). The additional wear in my gun I am not sure is worth it. And +p will increase my split times. Lastly, I can practice with AE and save the JHP for the match, Since the two rounds, AE and HST, have identical ballistics (providing my gun runs JHP, of course) once I develop an index where to hold my front sight dot (I have a Dawson FO installed), I can do that consistently.


    What was really interesting was the FPS, though, and the geometry effects of the flat bottom vs curved firing pin stop. The stock part in the Garrison is a rounded bottom. From what I can tell, a 5/64" radius was added by JMB to address Army concerns and lessen the force needed by GIs to rack an empty pistol in WWI? At any rate, I read some more articles and it appears the installation of a square bottom FPS (properly radiused and fitted) will delay the slide movement just enough to allow the bullet more time to exit, with a side effect of reducing perceived recoil...I may not be 100% understanding all this, but that's the impression I got.

    Based on that, I think at this point I'll leave the current main and recoil springs as is, and order a square bottom FPS to fit and install. I'm looking at either the EGW O/S or WC Bullet Proof part. I will then see how the gun tracks with that one change, THEN assess any recoil or mainspring changes, such as the below WC spring kit.

    https://shopwilsoncombat.com/SPRING-...ductinfo/324G/

    If the results are satisfactory, I'll get a box of the JHP and verify it runs. If that all works out, I should be on the way to an effective setup for pin shooting.
    Man you got 1911itis.

    1911itis: When you get your first 1911 and get the overwhelming urge to modify it.

    ___

    I'd try the 18# recoil spring and 23# mainspring (per @45dotACP's suggestion) first. It's much easier to replace springs than fit a new FPS.

  6. #1686
    Shakin' it here Boss! awp_101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Just wanted to update this question with some considerations based on input here and elsewhere.

    I'm finding out that the 1911 allows quite a bit of fiddling around with different parts and springs. Not only does the recoil spring affect recoil (duh) but also involved are the hammer (main) spring weight as well as the shape of the bottom rear of the firing pin stop, oddly enough.

    As a baseline, I am going on the assumption (trying to confirm with Springfield CS, direct) the gun has a 16 lb recoil spring and a 23 pound mainspring, and a radiused firing pin stop. Comparing the specifications for my preferred ammo options, Federal American Eagle 230 FMJ (AE45A) and Personal Defense HST 230 (P45HST2S), both cartridges are listed at 890 f/s and 404 ft lb of energy at the muzzle. So perhaps I don't need to be looking at a heavier recoil spring, just for shooting JHP.

    As to +p, I think "for me" the advantages are more theoretical than actual. I'll still need a center of mass hit on the pin, and having 10% hotter ammo isn't going to help me do that, despite having more momentum (mass x velocity). The additional wear in my gun I am not sure is worth it. And +p will increase my split times. Lastly, I can practice with AE and save the JHP for the match, Since the two rounds, AE and HST, have identical ballistics (providing my gun runs JHP, of course) once I develop an index where to hold my front sight dot (I have a Dawson FO installed), I can do that consistently.


    What was really interesting was the FPS, though, and the geometry effects of the flat bottom vs curved firing pin stop. The stock part in the Garrison is a rounded bottom. From what I can tell, a 5/64" radius was added by JMB to address Army concerns and lessen the force needed by GIs to rack an empty pistol in WWI? At any rate, I read some more articles and it appears the installation of a square bottom FPS (properly radiused and fitted) will delay the slide movement just enough to allow the bullet more time to exit, with a side effect of reducing perceived recoil...I may not be 100% understanding all this, but that's the impression I got.

    Based on that, I think at this point I'll leave the current main and recoil springs as is, and order a square bottom FPS to fit and install. I'm looking at either the EGW O/S or WC Bullet Proof part. I will then see how the gun tracks with that one change, THEN assess any recoil or mainspring changes, such as the below WC spring kit.

    https://shopwilsoncombat.com/SPRING-...ductinfo/324G/

    If the results are satisfactory, I'll get a box of the JHP and verify it runs. If that all works out, I should be on the way to an effective setup for pin shooting.
    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Man you got 1911itis.

    1911itis: When you get your first 1911 and get the overwhelming urge to modify it.
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    Tact is the knack of making a point without making an enemy

    Wheel of Morality turn turn turn. Tell us the lesson we should learn

  7. #1687
    Site Supporter RJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post

    I'd try the 18# recoil spring and 23# mainspring (per @45dotACP's suggestion) first. It's much easier to replace springs than fit a new FPS.
    Rob - Turns out I have an 18.5 WC spring, which sorta kinda accidentally fell into the shopping cart with my last order with them. I will probably go try it at the range, can't hurt to get a feel of it with some rounds. I'll more than likely order the WC BP flat bottom FPS, some files and cold blue, because I'm just curious about this stuff for some odd reason.

  8. #1688
    Slaughter Spherical Cows RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    because I'm just curious about this stuff for some odd reason.
    That's what 1911itis does to you...makes you itch.

    Beats other kinds of ailments you could have though...

  9. #1689
    Member Gary1911A1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BK14 View Post
    Well, the 1911 is shelved again. After I got my gun back from Springfield I noticed that the extractor was very loose and would rattle when shaken. Dummy rounds cycles through would regularly get stuck between the extractor and the upper part of the breach face instead of ejecting.

    Iíve been shooting the gun the last few weeks. About 400 rounds, including about 70 Gold Dots or Ranger-Ts. Zero malfunctions, and passed the 10-8 test, although some cases would have clearly weaker ejection. Shooting today, and I got another of the same malfunction for the first time.

    Round extracts from chamber, but appears to be torqued into the upper part of the breach face, where it narrows. Case is stuck on the extractor hook, with another round attempting to feed.

    Back to the Glock I go. Iím attempting one more time to fit a new extractor and slide stop to eliminate the chance of the extractor clocking. Iíve dumped way too much money into this gun in the last few years. For it to not run is just not okay.

    Planning on getting a Wilson BP slide stop and extractor. Any opinion on the Wilson vs egw extractor for a 9mm gun?
    Have you seen this video? https://youtu.be/vi-Rztz4E_Q

  10. #1690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary1911A1 View Post
    Have you seen this video? https://youtu.be/vi-Rztz4E_Q
    When I was still running 1911s, I came across an article by Hilton Yam suggesting a 17lb. recoil spring paired with a 19lb hammer spring. I tried it and liked how the gun felt in recoil. I stayed with that combo until I sold all my 1911s.

    I think the other combo he recommends is a 16lb recoil spring with a stock (23lb) hammer spring.

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