Decision matrix around what and how you carry in Synagogue/Church/Mosque

[SkippySanchez]

I realize we're straying from the original question and I apologise, but I do want to add this, then I'll be quiet.

I've mentioned several times to our team that it's more likely a disruptive or violent person will be someone we know than a total stranger (average attendence about 400 between two services), and we should be mentally prepared beforehand.

The more likely scenario is a domestic issue that spills over in a house of worship or a place of business. Divorce, child custody, in-law issues (re: Sutherland Spings), etc. While always possible, a stranger shouting 'alluha akbar' is not necessarily probable out here in Kansas.

De-escalation training should be regularly scheduled and practiced. We have a training scheduled this fall by a local PD Lt who is a hostage negotiator and trains de-escalation and compliance to officers in the department. We encourage our ushers, greeters and children's ministry volunteers to attend.

We also have LE with a squad car on campus every Sunday.


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I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

[TexasSiegfried]

My wife and I are full time, paid, professional church musicians in a large, upscale, suburban parish in central Texas, which does not, and probably will not ever, have a volunteer security team. On the big days, Christmas and Easter, we hire in two plain clothes professionals who act as ushers.

Given that, both my wife and I are always carrying. For the work week in the church office, I carry my SP2022 AIWB, as i am always able to wear a Tommy Bahama or Cubavera type shirt. My wife carries a P239 in her purse, which is always on her, unless she is at the organ or piano, and then it is within arm's reach. We have kids coming and going constantly on our campus and there is almost always some kind of upset parent issue, intinerant begger, mentally disturbed, etc. In the last 6 months, we have had two threats which were serious enough to report to local LEO, both leading to arrests. Our office is right next to the receptionist.

For worship, I carry off body in a messenger bag a collapsed CZ Scorpion, zeroed to 25 yards, and my SP2022 in a belt clip holster in the bag, with extra magazines for each, which sits right next to my conductor's podium. My wife does the same with her P239 in her purse. All fed, due to DocGKR's chart, by HST 147gr. We are fortunate to have a choir loft at the back of the Sanctuary, so we have the advantage of both being able to lock ourselves and the choir in, and have elevation for response.

Lest I sound like Rambo, let me clarify that neither my wife nor I have ever been LEO or MIL, and we don't have any John Wick fantasy inspired plans should anything happen. We have told our choir what to do in case something does happen (there is an additional equipment room off the loft without windows, which locks behind them), and we have a couple of designated folks in our choir with the keys necessary to make this plan happen, and ride herd on the, well, herd.

My wife and I have discussed this extensively, and our plans are situation dependent. If something happened on a big day when there are professionals onsite, our plan is to clear the choir to the eqipment room, then prep ourselves, but only take action if those professionals fail. In that instance, my wife will stay in the loft, and I will do what I can moving downstairs.

If something occurs when there aren't professionals here, we plan to respond from the loft first, hence the 25 yard zero on the Scorpion, as it is exactly 25 yards from my podium to the Pastor's chair.

What has been one of the more surprising aspects of all of this is how supportive the parishioners "in the know" have been to my wife and I in this endeavor. The very mainline, mainstream denomination in which we serve (based overseas in a walled city), will probably never be openly supportive of this kind of thing, BUT, since we are in Texas, 90 minutes from Sutherland Springs, since these attacks are increasing, and since we don't flaunt it all around, we have never had an issue or complaint.

We do get to the range 3 weeks of 4 and dry fire. As soon as we can find a weekend substitute for us, we plan to take Karl Rehn's active shooter response course to help us really be able to know just what the heck we should be doing.

Again, I can't emphasize enough that neither my wife nor I consider ourselves to be "civilian special operators". Thanks to PF, I *think* we have an idea of what we do know, and more importantly, realize that there is a crap ton of stuff we don't know. We don't aspire to a tacticool lifestlyle, we just know that neither of us could live with ourselves if something happened and we sat there saying, "if only we had brought our weapons", or worse, "if only we had been brave enough."

Thanks to all of you LEO and MIL folks on PF. Y'all have really helped two musicians stay grounded in a world most of my colleagues will never even understand or acknowledge.

TS

[Randy Harris]

I'm on our "safety team" but that doesn't really change much as far as what I carry on my person.

The only difference for me is I carry an extra spare mag in church. I normally just carry 1 spare mag and a BUG in everyday life (RMR'd Glock 17 as a primary and something smaller as a secondary) which is far more than I would probably ever need in public since I'm pretty good at minding my own business and avoiding problems and not engaging in monkey dances. But in church, especially as a member of the safety team, I am in a place and position where trouble might come looking specifically for us. So I augment the normal gear with an extra spare mag.

Edited to add....I guess I should answer the OP's questions...

1. What factors drive you towards what/how you carry when attending (not working security) your house of worship?

I carry pretty much what I carry in everyday life. Primary, Spare Mag, BUG, TQ, Israeli bandage, knife, flashlight, small pepper spray. If I'm doing safety team it is all that plus another spare mag.

2. What are you carrying?
Glock 17 RMR, and either Glock 26 or Kahr.

3. How are you carrying?
IWB and ankle or pocket

4. How are you prioritizing the ratio of shootability:concealability:comfort

For me Shootability all the way ....but obviously wardrobe dependent. I can't carry an Glock 17 well at the beach in board shorts. And I cannot carry a G17 easily with shirt tucked in and no jacket. And I cannot roll with an ankle holster and cargo shorts. So I normally dress to make the most effective gun work. At Easter the church was full and it was hot but since I was wearing a suit I left the jacket on the whole time to still be able to hide the full size gun. We normally go to the "contemporary service" and I can wear untucked shirts there without looking out of place.

[Cypher]

I’ve got 4 key questions I’m curious about but please feel free to add as you see fit.

1. What factors drive you towards what/how you carry when attending (not working security) your house of worship?

It's not that I specifically carry in church. I make it my habit never to leave my home unarmed, church just happens to be a place that I go.

2. What are you carrying?

Same as always, a Glock 19, two reloads, Fenix RC05 light, CRKT Ignitor.

3. How are you carrying?

Same as always, Galco CM on my right hip, reloads over my left, rear pocket.

4. How are you prioritizing the ratio of shootability:concealability:comfort

Most of the folks in my church dress in REI casual. It's not hard to conceal a Glock 19 under that.

Having said that, you could throw a rock in my church and you're probably going to hit someone that's carrying a gun.

[vcdgrips]

Answers in parens. I fully acknowledge that the "odds" of me becoming involved in a church shooting are extremely low. However, the stakes of failing to be prepared to do so are exceptionally high. YMMV Greatly.

1. What factors drive you towards what/how you carry when attending (not working security) your house of worship?
(Given the targeting of houses of worship in the US and around the world, its seems irresponsible not to carry if legally able to do so at "church".)

2. What are you carrying?
(Most of the time a G35 (75%) and G19 the rest of the time with a spare mag, blade, pepper spray and fully charged cell phone.)

3. How are you carrying?
(Mostly AIWB with the occasional IWB.)

4. How are you prioritizing the ratio of shootability:concealability:comfort
(Shootability is by far the most important factor in my CCW, not just at church, but always. Concealability and comfort are secondary and those concerns are significantly mitigated when a quality, purpose built holster is mated with a quality, purpose built belt. Being 6'2'' ish, 200 lbs ish, wearing a L/XL shirt or 44L coat and 34/36 waist pants does undoubtedly help.)

IMNSHO-most people who say that carrying Gun X is too uncomfortable or is not concealable enough (presuming they are carrying in a permissive env.) are simply doing it wrong. Many who insist on the J-Frame/G43 solution to that "problem" compound it by not putting in the time to know what their capabilities are with those respective platforms. I would not want to be trying to make a 20 yrd COM shot or even a 7 yrd head shot with a J frame when there was a minimum comfort/style/concealment "cost" to carrying at least a G19 in its place.

[psalms144.1]

Like many, my policy is not to leave the house unarmed, and I leave my house to go to Mass. I live in a DECIDEDLY gun UNfriendly area, but my parish (and the Clergy in it) are very pro-LE, so I'm not too worried about someone freaking out about me being armed. In fact, the parish holds an annual "Blessing of the Badges" for LE, so, it's not a huge secret that there are plenty of off duty/retired LE in the congregation. What percentage of those carry is a question for the ages, but I'm betting the number is in the single digits, percentage wise.

Having said all that, I carry to church what I carry to work - G19 (currently G26 for a variety of reasons) with at least one spare magazine, and a hand held light. For a while I toyed with the idea of a smaller "church gun" to be more discreet, but every time I do, it seems someone shoots up a house of worship, and I realize that's a bad idea. I DO NOT want to have my gunfight carrying just an airweight 38, or a single stack micro pistol in any caliber.

Attire at my chosen service is pretty casual, so 6-7 months of the year I'm wearing some kind of collared shirt and a fleece or soft shell vest - usually with a coat as well, when it's cold and/or rain/snowing. In the summers, I can get away with an untucked casual shirt and not look out of place, though my much better half wishes I didn't dress like "such a bum." On rare occasions when I have to dress like a responsible adult, a suit easily conceals my carry load, or, if it's summer but I have to wear a tucked in shirt, the G26 in a Galco Ankle Glove does the trick.

Again, it's EASY for me, I'm full time federal LE, and the parish leadership knows and likes the fact that I'm armed when I'm at Mass. For the rest of you, location, location, location in this instance means discretion, discretion, discretion. As I've stated above, I would NOT want to be defending my family and extended "family" using an LCP, so I think I'd find a way to always dress around a minimum "fighting" gun - for me that's a G26 or equivalent.

[Tensaw]

For those of you who attend church where the carrying of pistols is common across the congregation, but where there is no security team, something to really get a handle on is the very real problem of cross-fire situations. This cross-fire issue where multiple, barely trained folks, might whip out the gat and start blazing away without any real consideration for the potential that their rounds might impact somewhere besides the crook was the impetus for forming the security team at my church. Probably the biggest gain with the respect to our security situation was shining some light on the cross-fire thing and coordinating the actions of various individuals. (One quick scenario whereby the bad guy strides into the sanctuary mid-service got the point across pretty quick.) We have pretty much put out the word requesting that, if you are not on the security team, please don't try to burn down the bad guy (with certain exceptions).

The other thing you discover when forming such a team is that the average gun-owner's marksmanship, gunhandling, and understanding of use-of-force is pretty abysmal. Kinda spooky.

[nalesq]

For those of you who attend church where the carrying of pistols is common across the congregation, but where there is no security team, something to really get a handle on is the very real problem of cross-fire situations. This cross-fire issue where multiple, barely trained folks, might whip out the gat and start blazing away without any real consideration for the potential that their rounds might impact somewhere besides the crook was the impetus for forming the security team at my church. Probably the biggest gain with the respect to our security situation was shining some light on the cross-fire thing and coordinating the actions of various individuals. (One quick scenario whereby the bad guy strides into the sanctuary mid-service got the point across pretty quick.) We have pretty much put out the word requesting that, if you are not on the security team, please don't try to burn down the bad guy (with certain exceptions).

The other thing you discover when forming such a team is that the average gun-owner's marksmanship, gunhandling, and understanding of use-of-force is pretty abysmal. Kinda spooky.

I worry about this as well. There are lots of folks I know who carry guns to church, and I’ve seen many of them shoot. A very few are excellent, some are reasonably competent, and some are so horrible that I actually hope they don’t remember to rack their “Israeli carried” pistols if there’s ever going to be a gunfight in our church.




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[DDTSGM]

I worry about this as well. There are lots of folks I know who carry guns to church, and I’ve seen many of them shoot. A very few are excellent, some are reasonably competent, and some are so horrible that I actually hope they don’t remember to rack their “Israeli carried” pistols if there’s ever going to be a gunfight in our church.

Just thinking how to get that problem solved - not aware of the demographics of folks who carry or ranges in your area:

That sounds like a good excuse for a men's group to meet for shooting and breaking of bread.

Maybe an informal pistol league.

[Cypher]

For those of you who attend church where the carrying of pistols is common across the congregation, but where there is no security team, something to really get a handle on is the very real problem of cross-fire situations. This cross-fire issue where multiple, barely trained folks, might whip out the gat and start blazing away without any real consideration for the potential that their rounds might impact somewhere besides the crook was the impetus for forming the security team at my church. Probably the biggest gain with the respect to our security situation was shining some light on the cross-fire thing and coordinating the actions of various individuals. (One quick scenario whereby the bad guy strides into the sanctuary mid-service got the point across pretty quick.) We have pretty much put out the word requesting that, if you are not on the security team, please don't try to burn down the bad guy (with certain exceptions).

The other thing you discover when forming such a team is that the average gun-owner's marksmanship, gunhandling, and understanding of use-of-force is pretty abysmal. Kinda spooky.

I have attended three churches that each had a different approach to church security.

In the first church the Pastoral staff simply asked some parishioners who were police officers if they wouldn't mind carrying their handguns in service. I don't think discreetly asking a few people that you trust to carry in church is a horrible approach.

The second Church without question was the worst. To my knowledge they didn't have an active security team at all. They simply asked several people to carry at church during special events.

One of the guys they asked actually wore a suit to church that day (which was uncommon for both him and the church) because in his words "it made him feel like a cop."

I was involved with the security ministry for the church I attend now for probably five years. Their approach is to accept applications, conduct background checks and require that security team members who are able to do so provide training/handgun qualification records from their agency or their employer biannually.

Team members who don't work in career fields were they have qualification records like that are required to attend professional training provided by the church and qualify with the handgun that they carry for security duty at least bi-annually.

The issue that I've seen with this is that out of a church of I would say between 5 and 8000 parishioners we have 40 people on the security team roster and probably 30 of them aren't active members of the team.

There have been times where nobody showed up for security duty for a given service.

There's also the issue that all of the security team members are volunteers so they kind of do what they want.

I was doing driving patrol in the parking lot one night when I noticed that the guy who was supposed to be on the second floor walking around the parking lot.

I didn't feel like it was my place to ask him about it but he walked up to me and told me that he knew he wasn't in his assigned location but that God had told him to go walk through the parking lot and if I didn't like that oh well.

I wasn't in charge of the security team so there really wasn't anything I could do about it.

One Saturday we were doing active shooter training and we were sitting in the sanctuary listening to a lecture from CSPD when somebody in the back of the church fired a shot with a starter pistol.

One of the guys on the security team freaked out and started crying. He then got all butt hurt because they had "triggered his PTSD"

The guy giving the lecture told the whole class I'm sorry but this is life in the real world. If there's ever an active shooter incident here that's what it's going to be like. You're going to be sitting in church with your mind on the sermon and all of a sudden BANG and you need to be ready for that.

They're also two churches that I know of that simply hire contract security to cover their services.

Even though I don't have any experience with that approach if I was in charge of my church's security team that would probably be the route that I would go.

That way I'd have guaranteed coverage for every service and I would have people to cover the building during business hours.

I'd put them in the same uniform(tan cargos/black shirt concealed carry) that our volunteer guys wear right now and I would train them on church policies and procedures, so that if, for instance, somebody showed up 5 minutes before service started and wanted to know where to take their kids for Sunday School the guards would know how to answer that question.

Having said all that I mentioned earlier that quite a few people in our congregation carry guns.

Unfortunately some of them are idiots. I was working at the information desk one Sunday and watched two guys square up like they were going to have a quick draw contest. Neither one of them drew but both of them were armed.

The problem with that is it short of metal detectors I don't know how to keep people like that from carrying in church. The other problem is it I would be scared to death to see how either one of them responded to an active shooter incident.