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Thread: WMLs are Useless on CCW Pistols

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    What do you do when you need a light, but it's really not time to be drawing one's gat?
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  2. #12
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    If there's not enough light to see someone attempting to carjack you, how did that see you too attempt to carjack you? Ditto aggressive panhandling.
    IDK what to tell you, BBI's. I've been in places where there's enough ambient light to make out that there was a person present (enough needed for an aggressor to assault you), but not enough light to definitively make out what their hands are holding/doing. Especially inside a car, where the ambient light inside the car from the radio and dash makes it harder to see fine definitions outside the car where there's less light.

    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    A separate and distinct light source is more flexible, though, and much more likely to be useful.
    Given this and Joe's post, did I give the impression that we should be carrying a WML in-lieu of a handheld light?
    Last edited by TGS; 04-30-2019 at 08:27 PM.
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  3. #13
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    WMLs are Useless on CCW Pistols

    I gave the WML for CCW a try for a little over a year. I shot a few 1000 rounds in low light training with it. There were pros and cons, and I do not currently have a WML on any of my CCWs. Because of this, and for other obvious reasons, I have spent significant time building good SHO shooting ability.

    Pros: target acquisition, illumination +shooting +a free hand, and the ability to use a standard grip while shooting.

    Cons: sight illumination is better with a handheld. Illumination and muzzle direction are independent. Specialty holsters required for every gun/light combo. Holsters not as comfortable.

    I have a WML on my house pistol, and on every defensive SBR, rifle, or shotgun.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 04-30-2019 at 08:44 PM.
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  4. #14
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    I've recently been trying out a TRL7 on a G19 and will start carrying it as soon as my JM holster ships.

  5. #15
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    IDK what to tell you, BBI's. I've been in places where there's enough ambient light to make out that there was a person present (enough needed for an aggressor to assault you), but not enough light to definitively make out what their hands are holding/doing. Especially inside a car...
    Is the answer to that too draw a gun and point it so you can illuminate that person?
    In my state "pointing a firearm" is a crime.

    Why do I care what's in their hand? Are they saying anything to me? Attempting to open my door?
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    .
    Are you planning for reality to conform to your preconceptions on how a CCW gunfight will go down...

    and there's really no good reason to not have one.
    This rings true. I have guys at work explain why it’s crazy that I carry a med kit, 3 TQs, a backup gun, and 4 mags because of what they tell me to anticipate. The fact of the matter is, whether you’re a cop, or a civilian CCW, you don’t get to decide when, how, or where your gunfight happens.

    Lights like the TLR-7, Xc-1 (no experience with this light) and heck even an X300 with a good holster are not hard to make happen. The increased capability of a WML over a handheld are very apparent if you’ve taken any sort of a low light course, or actually drawn a gun after sunset.

    Admittedly, I don’t carry a WML or even a handheld at all times, but I should, and for me not to is just lazy. I’ve recently moved back to it and found the extra bulk is negligible for me.

    Can you make a handheld only work? Probably most of the time, but the same could probably be said for carrying a derringer. Make the investment, and up your capability.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Is the answer to that too draw a gun and point it so you can illuminate that person?
    In my state "pointing a firearm" is a crime.

    Why do I care what's in their hand? Are they saying anything to me? Attempting to open my door?
    Do you really need me to draw out word-for-word a scenario where a citizen would be justified in drawing their weapon in a vehicle or on a street, while still being unable to see what exactly is in the subject's hands?
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  8. #18
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Do you really need me to draw out word-for-word a scenario where a citizen would be justified in drawing their weapon in a vehicle or on a street, while still being unable to see what exactly is in the subject's hands?
    If you like. Assault on an occupied vehicle legally justifies deadly force in my state regardless of what's in the hands, though. I'm fine to point if I can shoot. I'm not justified just because i don't know what's in his hands.

    And, as mentioned, I'm sure you can fashion some hypothetical where a WML is indispensable. I've yet to see one real world. Neither has Givens.
    Last edited by BehindBlueI's; 04-30-2019 at 09:55 PM.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    If you like. Assault on an occupied vehicle legally justifies deadly force in my state regardless of what's in the hands, though. I'm fine to point if I can shoot. I'm not justified just because i don't know what's in his hands.
    What actions constitute "assault on an occupied vehicle" in your state? Is someone allowed to shoot someone simply for banging on their car and screaming angrily?

    That'd be a situation where, if I thought it likely such actions would convey hostilities (high crime area, notable amount of "assaults on occupied vehicles", armed car-jackings, etc), I could draw my pistol and assess the threat instead of 1) Drawing only my flashlight, or 2) Shooting them.

    Now, if I draw my gun and illuminate them, and they're hanging onto a gun, or perhaps some sort of object that looks like was being used for the banging and my mind registers them as trying to bust out my window, I've now articulated a reason to shoot the person and I can hopefully do it before they cause grievous bodily harm to me/mine. If I draw my gun and illuminate them, and they don't need to be shot (drunk dude, doesn't look like he has anything in his hands and is thus unlikely to breach my vehicle), I just saved myself from having to take someone else's life.

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    On this forum, there's three characteristics we advocate/practice that differentiate it from other forums: being a thinking shooter, a responsible shooter, and a capable shooter. We're supposedly all about making objective decisions to pursue these three facets to the fullest, so I don't understand why there are such dismissive attitudes towards using a tool that allows you to gather/process more information when it comes to taking someone's life.
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  10. #20
    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Expound.
    The OP deals with the notion that WML's are useless. You're against that notion. They certainly do have lots of utility. If you can get away with it there's little reason not to carry one. It's been said more that WML's aren't necessary. That I also agree with. Either way, a WML doesn't replace a handheld. We still need to make ID, a WML isn't the only way. A handheld isn't the only way.


    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I don't understand why there are such dismissive attitudes towards using a tool that allows you to gather/process more information when it comes to taking someone's life.
    I suppose I missed this, who is dismissing having a WML?
    Last edited by orionz06; 04-30-2019 at 10:21 PM.
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