WMLs are Useless on CCW Pistols

[Tactical Black Belt]

There is a breach of etiquette that happens in hunting sometimes where one hunter "scopes" another. He sees a man at a distance and uses his rifle scope to see who it is. In doing this he points his rifle right at the other man. This is not only dangerous but may make the other man think that he is about to be fired upon. I know of one instance where this caused a fight when a farmer was scoped by a neighbor. He punched the man and took his rifle away and to my knowledge still has it. Anyway, using a weapon mounted light as a flashlight is in effect no different than "scoping" when pointing it at another person.

[BehindBlueI's]

It's very possible that your attacker could be in a darker spot than you (gee, not like bad actors have a habit of hiding in dark spots) and using ambient light from around the corner to identify not just that you are there, but also your specific features for target selection/de-selection (small framed person, older person, woman, what types of shoes you're wearing, etc). The victim might even be illuminating themselves further with a cell-phone.

So possible its come up in zero incidents in anyone's numbers who've tracked this sort of thing? Yes, bad actors have hidden (though usually via concealment such as behind large bushes, dumpsters, parked cars, etc), right up until they announced a robbery or grabbed a person. They don't just continue to hide and try to rob/rape/beat you from a distance. The robbers who hid were almost entirely one of a group that were either layoff men and unknown to the victim until they started to fight back (hallmark of the professional, and dangerous) or immediately flanked the suspect when the overt suspect started the crime (more common with youth gangs).

If you carry a light and say a WML is useless you are stupid or ignorant or you have super-human vision or you EDC NVGs.

I'm not sure which group you assume I am in, but I carry a flashlight for things that have nothing to do with fighting. I've used my light to get down the stairwell in my old office building when the power went out for example. Not really something I'm going to use my WML for. Sort of like I can carry a pocket knife without having to carry a fighting knife and still get the utility of carrying a knife.

On a side note, how are folks attaching lights to revolvers? Or if you require a WML for all the reasons you believe it to be useful, simply forego carrying a revolver of any type?

[Tactical Black Belt]

While we are on the subject, something that puzzles me is people putting lights on compact pistols that stick out an inch or so beyond the muzzle. This totally defeats the purpose of having a shorter barrel. If your weapon is going to be that long anyway you would be better served filling that dead space above the light with another inch of barrel. This will give you a longer sight radius, a little more velocity, a little less muzzle blast and flash plus lessen the recoil.

[Clark Jackson]

While we are on the subject, something that puzzles me is people putting lights on compact pistols that stick out an inch or so beyond the muzzle. This totally defeats the purpose of having a shorter barrel. If your weapon is going to be that long anyway you would be better served filling that dead space above the light with another inch of barrel. This will give you a longer sight radius, a little more velocity, a little less muzzle blast and flash plus lessen the recoil.

Some like flush mounted lights, some not. I've tried both. If you consider a G19 a compact pistol then I like bigger lights on compact pistols. I prefer my G19 with a SF U-boat.

The light extending beyond the barrel gives me stand-off. Some point to this as a positive for "contact shots." I just say it's really good for use as a stand-off/brace. Example: shoot a VTAC 9-hole rifle drill with your pistol. A few of those shooting positions can get interesting. The WML that extends beyond the barrel can be an asset beyond providing you light.

As far as "filling the dead space above the light with another inch of barrel" some people (like me) prefer the way a shorter barrel tracks. I'm a fan of the G19 because of the barrel length even though the grip length is sub-optimal (for me) or was until the G45 was released. I tried the Surefire XC1 (flush to the barrel), but the switches sucked and I wasn't super thrilled with the light output. The XC1 light was okay when in total darkness, but not when there was any competing light source(s) (a/k/a "photonic barriers").

If I had a light on a sub-compact I might want a flush mount. If I'm using a sub-compact it is probably because it is filling a pocket gun role and I want the smallest form factor possible.

[03RN]

While we are on the subject, something that puzzles me is people putting lights on compact pistols that stick out an inch or so beyond the muzzle. This totally defeats the purpose of having a shorter barrel. If your weapon is going to be that long anyway you would be better served filling that dead space above the light with another inch of barrel. This will give you a longer sight radius, a little more velocity, a little less muzzle blast and flash plus lessen the recoil.

A wml extending past the muzzle will not allow it to be pushed out of battery if pressed against a bad guy.

Shorter slides also tend to cycle faster.

[Wake27]

While we are on the subject, something that puzzles me is people putting lights on compact pistols that stick out an inch or so beyond the muzzle. This totally defeats the purpose of having a shorter barrel. If your weapon is going to be that long anyway you would be better served filling that dead space above the light with another inch of barrel. This will give you a longer sight radius, a little more velocity, a little less muzzle blast and flash plus lessen the recoil.

That was the big reason that putting a comp on a G19 wasn’t entirely ridiculous for carry.


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[Jeff22]

This was sure a lot of debate over not very much . . .

If you are carrying concealed, a good hand held high intensity light is something useful to have available for many reasons.

If you think you need a weapon mounted light on your concealment gun, by all means get one. If it works out for your mode of carry and your mode of concealment and your perceived requirements.

Or don't, if you don't want to. But carry a good handheld light.

I have accumulated all sorts of neat SureFire products over the years, and they all still work, and I need to carry a light more consistently myself . . . it's just a useful thing to have available under many circumstances.

[jetfire]

If the point of this thread is to argue absolutes, you've done a piss poor job.

All things being equal I'd have a WML on everything including my carry gun. All things are not equal, so I don't have one on my carry gun. I do have a handheld on me at all times, and because I grew up in the Jurassic period I'm OK with that.

Only the Sith deal in absolutes

[JDD]

So possible its come up in zero incidents in anyone's numbers who've tracked this sort of thing? Yes, bad actors have hidden (though usually via concealment such as behind large bushes, dumpsters, parked cars, etc), right up until they announced a robbery or grabbed a person. They don't just continue to hide and try to rob/rape/beat you from a distance. The robbers who hid were almost entirely one of a group that were either layoff men and unknown to the victim until they started to fight back (hallmark of the professional, and dangerous) or immediately flanked the suspect when the overt suspect started the crime (more common with youth gangs).

This is the reason that I value my WML on my pistol.

I am not as concerned about using the light to make the first use of force judgement. Like so many have said in here, it very quickly moves into legally tricky territory. I have a hand light that I use for things going bump and walking around, and all the other day to day light needs.

Its the decisions to fire after the first one that I need the light for. I want to know that I am making a good split second decision about the second or third person that is in the area, or the room, or the relatively immediate vicinity. If I have just engaged a threat, we have moved past concerns about brandishing, but I remain keenly interested in only engaging threats that I have positively identified, not all of which may have been immediately apparent (but the time pressure to make those choices remains intense).

My current environments most likely scenario involves a few threats that are among a whole mix of outwardly identical non-threats. (Also incredibly unreliable lighting conditions )

[NH Shooter]

Not to be in any way dismissive of WMLs, but count me in the camp with those who find a quality handheld dedicated to self-defensive purposes far more useful. It was my training at the Sig Academy's Low Light Pistol Operators course that really tied it all together for me, and so clearly demonstrated how a light should be configured for this use.

One point I would like to add to the discussion: when I venture out in the dark, I not only have a light with me, but it's usually already in my support hand tethered to my index finger via a lanyard. I don't have to dig it out of my pocket, it's already in-hand. I've found I can carry and deploy it very discreetly yet have the support hand immediately available for other uses. Maybe that's just the flashlight nerd in me....

I would also like to point out that I have experimented with different size lights, different shapes, different UIs, etc. to arrive at the configuration I feel is perfect for this kind of use. The light pictured below fits my hand perfectly, is easy to activate and always and without fail activates on full power (1,000 lumens). IMO, the needed attributes of a light dedicated to self-defense are quite different than one used for general utility purposes.

I have not dismissed in any way adding a WML to my PPQ. It's just a matter of finding one that I feel would be reliable, have a UI that my stubby fingers can manipulate and one that Tony would make a holster for. In the mean time, I do not feel ill-equipped with a dedicated handheld.