Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 129

Thread: WMLs are Useless on CCW Pistols

  1. #1
    A camel named Charlie... TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alexandria, VA

    WMLs are Useless on CCW Pistols

    This is a concept that I strongly disagree with. "I'll never be in a situation where I'll need a WML" is a commonly held notion. I've seen members here post about how they'll never need to draw their gun and use a WML, because they will have already identified a threat prior to drawing their gun.

    Name:  oreally.jpg
Views: 1497
Size:  25.2 KB

    Recently, Officer Noor of the Minneapolis Police Department was convicted of murder. Here's this tidbit:

    Prosecutors argued that Noor acted unreasonably when he fired, and was too quick to assume that Damond was a threat. Noor and Harrity should have considered whether Damond was the 911 caller, the subject of Damondís 911 call or a woman from a previous 911 call placed earlier in the night by a neighbor, prosecutors have said.

    Prosecutors leveraged Harrityís reaction against Noor. While Harrity testified that he was spooked by the noise and the sight of a silhouette at his window, he also acknowledged that he had been unable to see Damondís hands and that it was premature to use deadly force based on the information he had at the time.
    So, there's a lot going on with this guy that caused this incident...primarily the party line that he shouldn't have been a cop to begin with.

    Yet, still, we have a picture-perfect example of a situation where a WML would be useful, whether you're a LEO or private citizen. "I won't draw my gun unless I need to use it, and I certainly would never point it at somebody unless they had already been identified as a threat!" scream the internet.

    So, if you're stopped at night-time and for whatever reason a person slamming on your car alerts you that they're possibly or likely a threat (real-speak: it scares you), and you see them raising a hand towards you, you're going to say, "Hey, hold on for a minute. Stop while I get out my handheld flashlight so I can assess whether you're a threat before I draw my gun."

    Or, would it make more sense to draw your gun in response to an articulable threat, assess with a WML whether shooting needs to happen, and then choose your course of action from there? If they're actually a threat, taking the time to take out your flashlight is taking your initiative deficit and increasing it exponentially....now you really won't have a chance if they are a threat. It doesn't make any sense. Not drawing your flashlight can lead you into a situation like Officer Noor, where he fired without fully assessing.

    So does your plan/gear make sense? Are you planning for reality to conform to your preconceptions on how a CCW gunfight will go down, or are you planning to address the gray areas that reality more often presents than square range training where an instructor gives a search command followed by targets facing?

    My Point:

    The tools to address these situations are available. There's a plethora of CCW-friendly WMLs that you can use, and there's really no good reason to not have one.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  2. #2
    Member cor_man257's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Florida
    I missed the O rly meme. I used to like it before the word "meme" even caught on. The Yea rly was funny too.
    ---

    I think that "big boy" rules is a dangerous line of thought. At the same time, I completely agree with you that sometimes it could be needed to respond with a weapon at ready, and then assess whats going on after. So while I think big boy rules are often used as an excuse for unsafe training, I think they do have a time and place.

    It's always funny to me when people argue about pointing a pistol WML at a person, they often times have no problems doing so when responding with a rifle. Someone will put an incredibly powerful light on a rifle so they can identify a possible threat at 150 yards and have no qualms about the fact it's attached to a muzzle. The same folks will be incredibly fast to say the same isn't smart with a pistol. I don't have enough training to know what's right, and I think it's likely this isn't a one size fits all solution.

    Someone has a theory on "Don't shoot yet" I just can't remember who. But this seems to fall into that category.

    -Cory

    Edit: I don't carry with a WML. Why? I don't have enough training on them, and need to prioritize other defense aspects first. The cost to go get training, and then quality gear makes it further down the list than other training and gear for what I view as my risks. Plus if I bought everything I "should" carry I likely wouldn't be able to buy bread.
    Last edited by cor_man257; 04-30-2019 at 06:58 PM.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter orionz06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Useless isn't the same as unnecessary and neither imply that one doesn't need to ID the target.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

  4. #4
    We're all mad here. Clark Jackson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    USA
    I read a *magical* post about this same subject in another thread... Post #47 see below link...

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post867521
    "The first quality that is needed is audacity." -Winston Churchill

  5. #5
    A camel named Charlie... TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
    Useless isn't the same as unnecessary and neither imply that one doesn't need to ID the target.
    Expound.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  6. #6
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Midwest
    LEO clearing a structure =/= civilian use. I'm sure I can think of a hypothetical where I could need a WML off duty, but I've yet to see off duty or civilian need one.
    L'otters are not afraid.
    WWOMJD?

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  7. #7
    A camel named Charlie... TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Alexandria, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    LEO clearing a structure =/= civilian use. I'm sure I can think of a hypothetical where I could need a WML off duty, but I've yet to see off duty or civilian need one.
    The example I gave wasn't a LEO clearing a structure, and it's a perfect example for private citizens in the context of carjackings vs. aggressive panhandlers at night.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  8. #8
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Midwest
    If there's not enough light to see someone attempting to carjack you, how did that see you too attempt to carjack you? Ditto aggressive panhandling.

    People don't get victimized in completely dark stairwells at distances. They get victimized in places with enough ambient light for the suspect to target them and by people close enough to victimize them.

    Nothing wrong with a WML if you want one. A separate and distinct light source is more flexible, though, and much more likely to be useful.
    L'otters are not afraid.
    WWOMJD?

    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Maybe with talented students I would lube up with baby oil and then go at it.

  9. #9
    Pizzagun Dilettante Joe in PNG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Papua New Guinea; formerly Florida
    What do you do when you need a light, but it's really not time to be drawing one's gat?
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Western New York
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    What do you do when you need a light, but it's really not time to be drawing one's gat?
    A wml doesnít replace a handheld.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •