M1152 & M1153 9mm Loads Info

[JHC]

This ammo looks suspiciously like the M1152 load. 115 grain, FMJ FP. Listed at 1300 fps. Comes in brown boxes.

Attachment 37595

Pretty good groups out of my HK P30L. 1.375" in the x-ring at 20 yards.

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.



Attachment 37884

[TiroFijo]

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.



Attachment 37884

That Norma load claims 1345 fps out of a 17" barrel. I guess it does aprox. 1200 out of a 4" barrel.

BTW, a 115 gr @ 1300 fps has approximately the same recoil impulse as a 124gr @ 1205 fps load.

[Jeep]

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.

[/ATTACH]

Here is a possibly relevant historical fact--or at least a factoid. When Sweden sent peacekeepers to the Congo in 1964, many of them carried Karl Gustav, "Swedish K," submachine guns. Those guns did not do well against the Simba warriors, who were given ju-ju charms that they were told would repel bullets. They turned out not to be real good at repelling bullets, but excellent at convincing the Simbas to keep going after being hit by a burst of 9mm.

The story is that the Swedes--who couldn't conceive of violating the Hague convention and using soft or hollow point bullets--contracted with Norma for an uploaded 9mm round that they could be sure would penetrate. Of course, the former FMJ 9mm rounds had been fully penetrating--just not stopping--the Simbas. (See M882). Surprisingly, the new ammo wasn't much better. You had to hit a Simba with a bunch of rounds to make sure he'd go down.

I'm wondering whether this Norma load is based on the uploaded ammo ammo they made 50 some years ago since it to was primarily designed for longer-barreled weapons.

[JHC]

Here is a possibly relevant historical fact--or at least a factoid. When Sweden sent peacekeepers to the Congo in 1964, many of them carried Karl Gustav, "Swedish K," submachine guns. Those guns did not do well against the Simba warriors, who were given ju-ju charms that they were told would repel bullets. They turned out not to be real good at repelling bullets, but excellent at convincing the Simbas to keep going after being hit by a burst of 9mm.

The story is that the Swedes--who couldn't conceive of violating the Hague convention and using soft or hollow point bullets--contracted with Norma for an uploaded 9mm round that they could be sure would penetrate. Of course, the former FMJ 9mm rounds had been fully penetrating--just not stopping--the Simbas. (See M882). Surprisingly, the new ammo wasn't much better. You had to hit a Simba with a bunch of rounds to make sure he'd go down.

I'm wondering whether this Norma load is based on the uploaded ammo ammo they made 50 some years ago since it to was primarily designed for longer-barreled weapons.

"Is that a true story Sheriff?"

Sheriff Tom Bell: "Its true that its a story."



Could be all of the above. One has to wonder how solid those hits were, what from full auto bursts etc. On and around OIF I read an end user argue that M882 from a M9 was plenty effective with high chest hits; that coming from an end user that understood that's the sweet spot on the torso. IDK.

[Jeep]

"Is that a true story Sheriff?"

Sheriff Tom Bell: "Its true that its a story."



Could be all of the above. One has to wonder how solid those hits were, what from full auto bursts etc. On and around OIF I read an end user argue that M882 from a M9 was plenty effective with high chest hits; that coming from an end user that understood that's the sweet spot on the torso. IDK.

I don't know. I knew some SF types who used Swedish K's and Browning Hi-Powers "over the line" in Laos, and they argued about the same thing. I'd think highish, center-of-the-chest shots, and shots that hit bone would work, but some had less-than-stellar reviews of 9mm FMJ based on up close and personal experience. Of course, the NVA tended to be very skinny so the bullets were unlikely to yaw until after passing through the body. In addition, they were in heavy bush and often outright jungle so you tended to see glimpses of khaki until you were only feet awy, which meant that a lot of hits were going to be marginal.

One of the things about the Simbas (though not the NVA) is that they really did believe they couldn't be hurt so they tended to keep fighting until they suddenly dropped dead. Kind of like the Moro jihadis in the Philippines.

[spyderco monkey]

I'm curious if this heavier slug will be this fast and what that is like in pistols.



Attachment 37884

The Norma is 1345fps from a 17" barrel. So out of handgun, pretty meh likely.

Here's a complete testing of almost all 9x19 loads from a 16" barrel:
https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/up...ronod.1659934/

By comparison, a Standard Pressure 124gr Gold Dot is 1376fps from a 16"; standard pressure 124gr HST is 1335fps. These rounds are 1150fps from a 4" barrel.

Meanwhile, 115gr 9BPLE (1300fps from a 4.5") is 1640fps from a 16".

[DocGKR]

Hmmm....what exactly does the increased velocity offer in terms of terminal performance effects?

[Joe Mac]

I see nothing new from that box but marketing... I've chrono'd Win. NATO 124 from a carbine more than once, and gotten 1350+ (while getting @1175 from a G17). The Norma load just looks like a reasonably warm 124 ball.

[Chuck Haggard]

The Swedes were looking for more penetration back then, but through barriers it would seem;

"m/39B is the 9mm ammunition used today. It was delivered in the beginning of 1955. It has a extraordinary thick jacket that prevents it from deforming easily, and that makes it better in penetrating hard targets. Some examples: It goes through 50 layers of kevlar or 20 cm of wood or 7 cm of brick. The jacket of the projectile also leads to a higher tear and wear on the weapon. Some figures point at up to 25% higher wear on the barrel when using m/39B ammunition compared against normal 9x19 ammunition e.g. m/39.
The V0 value mentioned above is for submachine gun m/45. For a pistol the value is some 40mps lower."

http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Am...Menu_Name=Ball

[the Schwartz]

The Swedes were looking for more penetration back then, but through barriers it would seem;

"m/39B is the 9mm ammunition used today. It was delivered in the beginning of 1955. It has a extraordinary thick jacket that prevents it from deforming easily, and that makes it better in penetrating hard targets. Some examples: It goes through 50 layers of kevlar or 20 cm of wood or 7 cm of brick. The jacket of the projectile also leads to a higher tear and wear on the weapon. Some figures point at up to 25% higher wear on the barrel when using m/39B ammunition compared against normal 9x19 ammunition e.g. m/39.
The V0 value mentioned above is for submachine gun m/45. For a pistol the value is some 40mps lower."

http://www.amkat.se/index.php?Env=Am...Menu_Name=Ball

Wow, that is a really thick jacket. Might even constitute >25% of total projectile mass which would make it a restricted/limited item here in the US.