Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 41 to 49 of 49

Thread: Leather Duty Holsters

  1. #41
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Jackson View Post
    I don't know if I need you to keep going, but I'm enjoying the discussion so... yes? Idk. Might delete later.

    I appreciate the examples you provided. Instead of doing multiple posts, I'll lump your first response to my question and the above quoted post together.

    I did not mean to infer, in my initial post, that I do not like holstering competently and in an efficient manner... especially into a holster which provides active retention absent additional actions by the user. If I gave that impression, my bad and let me start over.

    10/10 I believe you should be able to - especially LE and military folks - holster a pistol with competency and efficiency (read: timeliness) while under stress. I also believe a solid retention holster from a reputable manufacturer (with a proven track record) should be the gold standard. The Safariland ALS style of holsters are - IMO - those holsters. The SLS is okay, but it is sub-optimal to the ALS because it requires an additional action by the user to "lock" the gun. You provided a great example with your partner losing his pistol during a chase because he didn't flip the SLS hood back up. Additionally, the SLS "hood" can be inadvertently activated by gear more easily than the ALS - or so I've been told.

    I do not think that people should be holstering without looking - regardless of profession - as a regular practice. Do I think you should pressure test your ability/necessity to do so via force-on-force training? Absolutely. I just don't buy into the training concept of always holstering a hot pistol - as fast as you can - without even a momentary pause or glance at where you're shoving that pistol - rapidly and under stress - because real world and stuff.

    In reference to your four examples: I don't think taking the extra fraction of a second to look where you're putting the pistol would be a detriment in any of them. Do I think lingering and taking 10 seconds to do it could negatively impact you in certain situations? Sure. I'm not talking about that kind of "reluctantly back to the holster" stuff. I'm talking about a proficient gun handler taking a fraction of a second to confirm where his gun is going before blindly and with stress-induced-ogre-strength smashing his pistol into an unknown space. And that's a common thing in the training world now ... "speed holster" with a hot pistol on the clock because "real world and stuff." I'm not saying you made that argument - I'm saying that's a thing right now and has been for awhile now and I think it's dumb af. Also dumb af is the term "re-holster." Soliloquy complete.

    Now to your examples:

    "Example 1: You are a K9 handler on a building search for a wanted suspect seen fleeing into it. You've made announcements and no one answers. You send your dog and now you are behind your gun out and a few other guys clearing behind him. Suddenly your dog bites someone...a homeless guy not your suspect. You want to holster fast and securely."

    Disclaimer: I have zero experience handling a dog in any capacity outside that civilian walking-a-dog life. I don't want to give the impression I'm speaking from a position of authority or expertise in the K9 world - fair warning.

    In this situation I agree that you would want to holster "fast and securely." I would say "efficiently and safely," but close enough. I think "fast" is relative, can be subjective, and when objective it is uniquely objective to that particular situation. What I definitely don't want to do - and I don't think you do either - is rush the holster (speed holstering) and have an unintentional discharge (UD). I also don't want to take 10 seconds trying to figure out my holster or how to use it either. I think we're on the same page on this one.


    "Example 2: You have your gun down at a low ready as your partner is attempting to Taser someone. It's not a lethal force scenario, but easily could be thus guns out and it's your job to provide lethal cover. The Taser doesn't work and the guy charges your parter. Now it is hands-on....you need to holster fast and securely."

    I like these examples. First, impossible. I would never be at this "low-ready" you speak of because "Temple Index" or "Holster Index" are life. Just kidding. I hope someone laughed at that. J/k, Idk, I laughed. (Laughed is TM to me... use it and I'll sue you).

    Again, I think we're on the same page man. I'd want to holster efficiently and safely because a UD into me (or someone else... but specifically into me) might hinder my ability to fight said bad dude. Side note: I think not going "hands-on" soon enough and convincingly enough (to the bad guy) may be what gets a lot of officers in trouble... but that's just a side bar based on news reports - I could be way off and that is probably a great title for another thread.


    "Example 3: You are at a call at a homeless shelter of a man going crazy. He's armed with a bat smashing the wall. There is a large crowd of people. Suddenly he drops and stops breathing (excited delirium). You need to start CPR immediately and the crowd is screaming for you to do something (your body cam is filming and you're on surveillance and this just became a protocol case). Being able to holster quickly and securely (under incredible stress and with a dump of adrenalin and endorphins) may be important."

    I really do appreciate the time and effort you put into this... most people just do d-bag things like answer with single word responses. (Okay, that's funny - trust me.)

    So, quick point of order. "A protocol case." I don't know what that means... so if my answer is all jacked up because of that you can't hold it against me. Everything else being what I think it means, I would (again) want to holster efficiently and safely and definitely not have a UD because i rushed a holster. I 100% never want a UD but here I definitely don't because 1) crowd, 2) cameras, 3) all the other bad stuff that comes from a UD, crowds, and cameras.

    Again, I think we're on the same page here. Side bar: Does the crowd chant "Miracle Man! Miracle Man! Miracle Man!" after i successfully perform CPR and the crazy train guy is alive again? That'd be awesome. Like, I think I'd stand up and get them chanting "Miracle Man" after resuscitating him. That'd be dope.


    "Example 4: You are in the city jail finishing booking an arrestee. Beep-beep-beep....alert tones over your radio. A co-worker has just been shot at. You and everyone else go running out of the jail. More of that magical CNS juice just got dumped through your body depleting fine motor skills and you are now in the giant hurry. You get out of the jail and need to get your guns (plural) back on as fast as you can to get to the scene. Having a holster that's fast to secure a gun may be important."

    Honestly, you should write scenarios for some LE academies and/or movies (maybe theatre too). I'm diggin' it. Sound effects and everything... "beep-beep-beep"... I love it! "CNS juice!?" Does "CNS" mean "Central Nervous System?" Did we just become best friends!? I think we did! If you start saying "HCR" for "High Compressed Ready" I'll D-X @karmapolice and you'll be my new BFF... don't ever change who you are KevH.

    So, overall no argument from me as far as the requirement for a secure holster that can be "fast." I'm not totally clear on how this "example #4" scenario lines up with the other three, or what exactly I'm doing in that scenario, but seriously you did a good job on Examples 1-3 so I'm just going to kind of ignore this last one. 75% solid stuff in a PF post is more than legit on these days... hell, it's probably in the Top 2% of posts as far as quality if we're all being honest.

    "Need me to keep going?" After thoroughly reviewing your post and enjoyably responding, yes, yes I do need you to keep going. PF needs you to keep going. America needs you to keep going. Someone's gotta make P-F great again. (HaHaha! I made several funnies there.)

    PS - I almost forgot to address one thing from your first post... "If you draw and point a gun at someone and something weird happens...like they decide to run away...you are going to have to holster fast...and if you want to chase them...the gun better be secure (I watched a gun fall out of a partner's 6280 in a foot pursuit where the SLS wasn't up)."

    If something weird happens (and I also use this in life) I just get weirder... by like a lot. You cannot go wrong with getting weirder. So if the dude decides to run I might decide to run after him with my gun in my hand (WEIRD!). I know. Let go of those pearls everyone... clutching them makes you look scared. Plus, I've got more...

    I might look where I'm holstering and holster (efficiently and safely) and then chase said perpetrator with an uninjured leg because I didn't shoot myself. And guess what? I'm going to catch him. You want to know why I'm going to catch him? Superior attitude, superior state of mind (Seagal, Hard to Kill). Nah, just kidding, superior cardio... and some luck maybe.

    Or maybe I chase him with the gun in my hand until i need to holster and then do so at that time (WEIRD!). Or maybe I holster efficiently and safely and miss my opportunity to catch him because I skipped cardio day all last month and just crushed some Little Caesars $5 deals for a month straight (Possible... not weird). In that case I'll have to find another way like my radio or a detective or something.

    Sometimes doing the right thing means not doing the right thing... Idk. #Deepthoughts (SNL reference... I know, the show hasn't been funny since John Candy was on it.)

    PPS - In example #4, you mentioned more than one gun per person. Careful. More than one gun may constitute a violation of someone's 4th Amendment Rights and you'll be sued. Ask TC215... (sorry, not sorry?) It's a joke TC215... don't be mad. Okay, be a little mad because "the hate keeps me warm at night." Wolverines!

    Man, y'all on notice, I'm on fire today.

    In all seriousness KevH, thanks for the responses. Some of the best ones I've seen lately and I sincerely appreciate it. (emoticon thumbs up)
    Your homeless guy is likely dead meat. im 0-2 with CPR on adults. Both CPR saves Im personally aware of, one by my dad back in the 70s and one by a co-worker about 10 years ago involved kids.

    Ps- if your coworker saves a kid via CPR and receives community award it requires at least 30 days of CPR HERO JOHN DOE pranks.

  2. #42
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Does a lower riding duty holster, like the one in the pic I posted of John Cooper, offer any benefits?

  3. #43
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    Does a lower riding duty holster, like the one in the pic I posted of John Cooper, offer any benefits?
    Absent shoulder mobility issues, the main benefit of a lower riding holster is clearing bulky body armor or gear.

    In the past some thought lower riding holsters were faster but distance equals time and timers say otherwise.

    Its mostly a hold over from Revolver days, kinda like swivel holsters which are all about comfort.
    Last edited by HCM; 04-29-2019 at 09:34 PM.

  4. #44
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Absent shoulder mobility issues, the main benefit of a lower riding holster is clearing bulky body armor or gear.

    In the past some thought lower riding holsters were faster but distance equals time and timers say otherwise.

    Its mostly a hold over from Revolver days, kinda like swivel holsters which are all about comfort.

    Would the lower riding holster be more conformable?


    Seems like it might make retention a bit tougher vs a high ride holster.

  5. #45
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by TheNewbie View Post
    Would the lower riding holster be more conformable?


    Seems like it might make retention a bit tougher vs a high ride holster.
    It is a retention issue. A lower riding holster would only be more comfortable if it was a swivel holster. Swivels have a host of issues. They are one thing we are well rid of.

  6. #46
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    northern CA
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Ps- if your coworker saves a kid via CPR and receives community award it requires at least 30 days of CPR HERO JOHN DOE pranks.
    No! No it doesn't. Not even if its a state award.

  7. #47
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    TEXAS !
    Quote Originally Posted by Erick Gelhaus View Post
    No! No it doesn't. Not even if its a state award.
    Oh we got very creative .., it started with reserved CPR hero parking spot and went downhill from there ...

  8. #48
    We're all mad here. Clark Jackson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    USA
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Absent shoulder mobility issues, the main benefit of a lower riding holster is clearing bulky body armor or gear.

    In the past some thought lower riding holsters were faster but distance equals time and timers say otherwise.

    Its mostly a hold over from Revolver days, kinda like swivel holsters which are all about comfort.
    +1 main benefit being to clear BA/gear.

    A solid way to ensure your pistol rig isn't too low:

    1) stand straight
    2) let your hands hang naturally at your sides
    3) attempt to curl your fingers/hand under the muzzle portion of your holster.

    If you are able to curl your fingers/cup your hand under the muzzle end of your holster you are good. If your fingers cannot do so without excessively moving your arm or breaking your posture (e.g. leaning to one side) then the holster is mounted too low.

    In the late 90's/early 2000's sub-loads (thigh-rigs) got super popular or that's when i noticed them as super popular. At that time I heard some say the idea was to have your hand resting at or just beyond the pistol grip (while standing) because the draw would be faster. Made sense to a younger me. Then the obvious issues presented themselves the first time I attempted to do something athletic. Running, jumping over walls, getting in and out of vehicles, or doing anything other than standing on a flat range just plain sucked. A lot.

    Then - as HCM pointed out - you start using shot timers and suddenly that super low holster technique really hurls itself into the pile of "good idea initially, failed fantastically in realty."
    "The first quality that is needed is audacity." -Winston Churchill

  9. #49
    We're all mad here. Clark Jackson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    USA
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Here is an example: your fleeing kidnapping suspect with nothing in his hands runs right at you from the he ran into because backyard where he was unable to get over the back fence. Unable to reholster you hip check him hard enough to wobble him allowing your partner to tackle him. He is elbowing and trying to bite your partner so you re-holster as you kick him in the ribs before joining in the fun on the floor.

    In this case my choices were holster fast orbit him with the gun. Since he was entangled with my partner Im not hitting him with the gun - too risky for my partner.

    ALS all the way. There is a time and place for speed and no look re-holstering in LE.
    I'm a fan of the ALS. There is a time and place for just about everything, probably.

    You should train "no look holstering" under certain circumstances, but it should not be the default action/mantra I see/hear constantly. You should train it with inert pistols (dry fire) and with simunitions in conjunction with force-on-force.

    Force-on-force is really the only place where you see the advantages/disadvantages of "speed holstering" and "holstering without looking." It's also the only place (outside of doing it "in real life") where you realize that the situation (people, things, weather, etc.) all have a vote in what you do - to some extent - regardless of what your training tells you is the right answer.

    I am not speaking to anyone in particular here - I'm just yelling out into the interwebz - but I see a lot of the following:

    - "no look speed holstering" after every string of fire; (not a fan and when done with a loaded pistol I'm rabidly not a fan)

    - "360 degree checks" prior to the "no look speed holstering" after every string of fire; (not a fan)

    - "sidesteps" for every draw and/or reload. (not a fan)

    I do not endorse and will openly deride the practices of hot pistol "speed holstering" and "no look holstering" - not to mention their mutant baby the "no look speed holstering."

    I think these things have a time and place as described above. However, if done routinely and without context these things become flat range theatrics based on theoretical hyperbole ... and that's bad. It's real bad.

    End soliloquy.
    "The first quality that is needed is audacity." -Winston Churchill

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •