Why are 125/130 grain .38+p so slow?

[Borderland]

Compared to the mainstream manufacturers' 125 grain +P loadings, these all qualify
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=288

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785707491385

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...18785707524153

I'm not sure what your point is here except that you are comparing others ammo to BB. That's apples and oranges. To compare you have to have the same bullet, primer, case, powder, etc. Then load a 125 and 158 using that criteria. If you use the same powder charge the 158 will produce more pressure. To reach the same pressure for both you will have to reduce the powder charge for the 158 which will make it slower. Any reloading manual will demonstrate that using the same components.

Now as far as BB, I don't know what they're doing to get 158 up to those velocities and they aren't revealing their pressures and nobody else is either. You can bet that their pressures exceed SAAMI 38 SPL. We all know that those are just standards and 20K psi round is safe in revolvers designed for plus P. There is no SAAMI rating for plus P. If there were it would probably be around 20K PSI. Not terribly hard to design around that.

My guess is that those other mfg's use 125's to reach the velocity threshold that allows their bullets to expand. Very few bullets will expand below 1000 fps. It's just easier to get a 125 above 1000 fps than a 158 if you have pressure issues like you would with 38 SPL. Hornady uses 110 gr bullets for non plus P 38 spl for that reason.

[Alpha Sierra]

If this true:

Now as far as BB, I don't know what they're doing to get 158 up to those velocities

Then you're guessing when you say this

You can bet that their pressures exceed SAAMI.

We all know that those are just standards and 20000 psi round is safe in revolvers designed for plus P.

No idea what you're talking about

There is no SAAMI rating for plus P.

Cool, I'll let SAAMI know that page 21 has a mistake https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

[03RN]

And then what would happen?

We'd have better ammo.

[Borderland]

If this true:


Then you're guessing when you say this




No idea what you're talking about



Cool, I'll let SAAMI know that page 21 has a mistake https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Then convert the SAAMI plus P CUP to PSI. You can't do it because it isn't possible. So the reality is you don't know either what the SAAMI pressure testing says, do you?

Do you even reload?

[Alpha Sierra]

Then convert the SAAMI plus P CUP to PSI. You can't do it because it isn't possible. So the reality is you don't know either what the SAAMI pressure testing says, do you?

Do you even reload?

You said SAAMI standards for +P ammo don't exist. I showed you their standards say otherwise. The pressure units are irrelevant because those who do test their ammo have the equipment to measure in the correct units.

Your comment about reloading is a stupid strawman because (home) reloaders can't measure the pressure of their loads in any units.

You are way out of your lane and just double down on dumb because you can't admit it.

[Hambo]

We'd have better ammo.

Would we? History lesson time. Back in the 80s/90s we drove poorly designed bullets faster to make them "better". With modern bullet engineering we have bullets that are designed to expand and penetrate very consistently within a velocity window. There's no "better" to be achieved.

[03RN]

Would we? History lesson time. Back in the 80s/90s we drove poorly designed bullets faster to make them "better". With modern bullet engineering we have bullets that are designed to expand and penetrate very consistently within a velocity window. There's no "better" to be achieved.

The absolute best .38 ammo doesn't always meet those standards though. Especially through barriers.

When I carry .38s I use Winchester +p bonded Rangers. Which seems to be the best bet but isn't available anymore. I got a good stash when it was blown out. The current +p pdx is 50fps slower and expands/penatrates less. The .38 HST does not do barriers well.

.38 manufacturers did not extend the same work as they did with the other calibers which makes sense. I don't fault them for it. They're out there to make money.

I need to try to find some tests with Underwoods gold dot going 1200fps. Which is in line with 9mm gold dots. More than likely designed for different velocity but interesting.

I very seldom carry .38s, I'm just curious and am not losing any sleep on this. There's been a lot of good info about gun design that I do understand (early 9mm barrels were thicker than modern .38 cylinders) but if it's a pressure issue why don't 9mm revolvers have issues?

[Alpha Sierra]

There's been a lot of good info about gun design that I do understand (early 9mm barrels were thicker than modern .38 cylinders) but if it's a pressure issue why don't 9mm revolvers have issues?

Now that you mention it......I wonder the same thing. I'm going to bet that the difference in chamber wall thickness at its thinnest location is not much different (if at all) between the same revolver in both chamberings. And if one cylinder can be processed/heat treated to a condition to sustain 9x19 pressures, so can the other.

[Hambo]

When I carry .38s I use Winchester +p bonded Rangers. Which seems to be the best bet but isn't available anymore.

Wait, what did I miss? RA38B is still on Win LE and there is a bonded 130gr +P listed on the non-LE site.

[revchuck38]

Would we? History lesson time. Back in the 80s/90s we drove poorly designed bullets faster to make them "better". With modern bullet engineering we have bullets that are designed to expand and penetrate very consistently within a velocity window. There's no "better" to be achieved.

The absolute best .38 ammo doesn't always meet those standards though. Especially through barriers.

When I carry .38s I use Winchester +p bonded Rangers. Which seems to be the best bet but isn't available anymore. I got a good stash when it was blown out. The current +p pdx is 50fps slower and expands/penatrates less. The .38 HST does not do barriers well.

While @Hambo's comments are accurate when applied to autoloader ammo, the "no 'better' to be achieved" part is questionable when applied to revolver ammo. The most recently-designed revolver ammo is apparently configured to work best from a snub, with performance from a longer barrel deemed irrelevant. It's also apparently designed to be shot only from recently-built guns since the low bullet weight doesn't shoot to the sights in 20th century manufactured guns. What testing I've seen in .38 Special shows current designs usually penetrating to the shallow end (if that far) of the 12-18" window through heavy cloth and in bare gel. I don't recall having seen barrier penetration testing for current designs so I can't comment on that.

I rarely carry round guns anymore except when I'm feeling nostalgic. When I do, it's ammo that was designed for the 80s/90s-built 4" guns I have - R-P's version of the FBI load in .38 and their 158-grain SJHP in the .357s. IMO they're better suited to non-LE needs, even if they're not what the Kool Kidz carry. In my autoloaders? HST all the way, just like the Kool Kidz.