Jump-qualified SWAT team? Why?

[blues]

Send team to air assault school and rappel master training and call it done. These schools are more abundant and are even run by NG units not just active duty so getting to get training, keeping up to date and other logistical aspects are easier. Not to mention UH-60's and some of the other birds are common across NG, Army, Coast Guard, CBP et al. so getting a bird to do ops might be easier as well. Not to mention risk is much lower with something like this and the flight range is pretty decent on these birds, (I fail to see insertion needs being far). Evac, exfil, time on station, observation are all huge pluses. I also see rappelling skills are usable outside assaulting operations, thinking rescue operations as well here. I see minimal risk and downside to this vs fixed wing. In addition; rotary wing if pilots are capable, can be used in densely populated areas for all of these listed tasks. Again fewer downsides to rotary wing.

Spot on, Mike. Our team used to be ferried by UH-60 from the Miami area out to the Everglades, west coast of FL, up north along the east coast, or out over the Atlantic when we worked jointly with the Bahamians. I enjoyed training with our pilots and the flights were never dull.

[TC215]

Send team to air assault school and rappel master training and call it done. These schools are more abundant and are even run by NG units not just active duty so getting to get training, keeping up to date and other logistical aspects are easier. Not to mention UH-60's and some of the other birds are common across NG, Army, Coast Guard, CBP et al. so getting a bird to do ops might be easier as well. Not to mention risk is much lower with something like this and the flight range is pretty decent on these birds, (I fail to see insertion needs being far). Evac, exfil, time on station, observation are all huge pluses. I also see rappelling skills are usable outside assaulting operations, thinking rescue operations as well here. I see minimal risk and downside to this vs fixed wing. In addition; rotary wing if pilots are capable, can be used in densely populated areas for all of these listed tasks. Again fewer downsides to rotary wing.

According to their website, Greenville County has a Kiowa, Huey, and Cessna 182.

[Mike C]

According to their website, Greenville County has a Kiowa, Huey, and Cessna 182.

The Kiowa is interesting guess strictly for observation. Huey would be good to go for a fair amount of what I am talking about. Not sure about the cost on a Cessna 182 but I say sell that bitch and buy another Huey, or sell it and the Kiowa and buy two, (because DOC says we need three, training, carry, and spare and that is just sound advice) but hey that's probably not sexy enough.

[TC215]

The Kiowa is interesting guess strictly for observation. Huey would be good to go for a fair amount of what I am talking about. Not sure about the cost on a Cessna 182 but I say sell that bitch and buy another Huey, or sell it and the Kiowa and buy two, (because DOC says we need three, training, carry, and spare and that is just sound advice) but hey that's probably not sexy enough.

The 182 cost per hour is way less than a Kiowa or Huey. I’ve flown on both fixed-wing and helicopters for surveillance operations (belonging to state agencies, not my own) and would probably prefer helicopters for most LE operations, though fixed-wing can be good for surveillance.

[Mike C]

The 182 cost per hour is way less than a Kiowa or Huey. I’ve flown on both fixed-wing and helicopters for surveillance operations (belonging to state agencies, not my own) and would probably prefer helicopters for most LE operations, though fixed-wing can be good for surveillance.

Point taken, I do believe they are used quite frequently in counter narcotics operations in South America. Didn't we also have a thread not long ago about a Vientam era plan being brought back for COIN operations due to reduced costs per flight hour as well? I think I read that they also were self deployable which is also cool for MIL but fail to see context for LE operations.

[blues]

Our surveillance ops were backed up by fixed wing far more often than helicopters. (Whether the birds were supplied by us or our state / local partners in our task force.)

[Kevin B.]

When he says “Tier One”, he’s referring to the NTOA standards. I would consider our SWAT team a Tier 2 team. The main difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams is that Tier 1 is supposed to have the capability for pre-planned hostage rescues, and Tier 2 is emergency hostage rescue only.

Greenville SWAT is a part-time team. It is hard for me to imagine a part-time team that stays preficient enough to be effective at pre-planned hostage rescue (the Super Bowl of tactical operations). I made the comment to an FBI SWAT guy once that if we had a real hostage situation, we would call them (a regional team). He said that they would immediately call in their Enhanced SWAT team in Atlanta, who would immediately call HRT.

But, maybe Greenville SWAT really is that badass.

NTOA standards:

http://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf

Article:

https://www.wspa.com/news/6k-spent-o...ies/1143651576

Apologies for taking the thread down a tangent, but how are the NTOA standards listed validated? Is there some sort of independent accreditation/certification process or does the Sheriff/Chief unilaterally determine the status of the team? If there is an accreditation/certification process, who conducts it and what is the frequency?

[HCM]

About BORTAC, there are sector level BORTAC teams and then there is the national BORTAC team kinda like FBI SWAT regional SWAT teams vs HRT. Jumping is something I could see part of a national team being capable of doing but they would just go to .MIL schools.

Some background on federal teams:

https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=787682

[Erick Gelhaus]

Reno (NV) PD SWAT lost an officer in 1996 due to a parachute failure during a joint training exercise with Navy SEAL's. I recall reading that the team had previously deployed by parachute during a desert manhunt.

My first thought was really? Not the joint training aspect but the joint jump part. Well, from ODMP:

Police Officer Keith Tadashi Hashimoto
Reno Police Department, Nevada
End of Watch Friday, March 29, 1996

Officer Keith Hashimoto was killed during a training accident at Fallon Naval Air Station.

Officer Hashimoto and other members of the department were conducting a joint training exercise with a team of Navy SEALs when his parachute failed to open during a jump. He was pronounced dead upon arrival of rescue units.

Officer Hashimito had served with the agency for 7 years.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/14742-p...ashi-hashimoto

[HCM]

I can’t really picture a scenario in which I, as a SWAT officer, would need to jump out of an airplane.

They spent just over $6,000 to send six guys to that training. Last year, I contacted Pat Mac about him coming to our department to put on training for our team. The price he gave me was $6-7k for our entire team. I know which one I would rather spend money on.

Quote from the sheriff:



When he says “Tier One”, he’s referring to the NTOA standards. I would consider our SWAT team a Tier 2 team. The main difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams is that Tier 1 is supposed to have the capability for pre-planned hostage rescues, and Tier 2 is emergency hostage rescue only.

Greenville SWAT is a part-time team. It is hard for me to imagine a part-time team that stays preficient enough to be effective at pre-planned hostage rescue (the Super Bowl of tactical operations). I made the comment to an FBI SWAT guy once that if we had a real hostage situation, we would call them (a regional team). He said that they would immediately call in their Enhanced SWAT team in Atlanta, who would immediately call HRT.

But, maybe Greenville SWAT really is that badass.

NTOA standards:

http://ntoa.org/pdf/swatstandards.pdf

Article:

https://www.wspa.com/news/6k-spent-o...ies/1143651576

Apologies for taking the thread down a tangent, but how are the NTOA standards listed validated? Is there some sort of independent accreditation/certification process or does the Sheriff/Chief unilaterally determine the status of the team? If there is an accreditation/certification process, who conducts it and what is the frequency?

In addition to the NTOA standards, DHS / FEMA classifies LE Tactical teams (and other LE resources) as “Type” 1-4 based on their personnel, training and equipment.

https://www.fema.gov/media-library-d...urces_2007.pdf

If you look at page 21/22 of the document linked above, there is a category for “ insertion capabilities.” Type 1 and 2 teams have a requirement for “Air mobile capabilities including FAST rope and rappel” but there is is no specific mention of parachute capability.

For those wondering why DHS/FEMA has standards for LE resources, it is described below but in plain English, you don’t wait until a disaster to coordinate mutual aid.

FEMA 508-6_Typed Resource Definitions Law Enforcement and Security Resources

For ease of ordering and tracking, response assets need to be categorized via resource typing. Resource typing is the categorization and description of resources that are commonly exchanged in disasters via mutual aid, by capacity and/or capability. Through resource typing, disciplines examine resources and identify the capabilities of a resource’s components (i.e., personnel, equipment, training). During a disaster, an emergency manager knows what capability a resource needs to have to respond efficiently and effectively. Resource typing definitions will help define resource capabilities for ease of ordering and mobilization during a disaster. As a result of the resource typing process, a resource’s capability is readily defined and an emergency manager is able to effectively and efficiently request and receive resources through mutual aid during times of disaster. This document replaces FEMA 508-6, Law Enforcement and Security Resources, dated July 2005. The SWAT/Tactical Team resource definition table is extensively revised.

https://www.fema.gov/media-library/a...ocuments/25901