A Case Study in the Outsourcing of U.S. Border Control

[HCM]

The more I think of it, the more it seems like the analogy of an extremity hemorrhage fits. Slow the massive blood loss first. The wall is a tourniquet to do that. Sure it wont stop all of the blood, and there are other issues that will come up and things to consider, but if we don't provide some type of immediate solution (half solution or not), nothing else will matter because it'll be too late. 170k people in two months. Most of us can't even conceive an amount of people that large.

Re BITMAP - there are benefits best not discussed in a public forum.

A tourniquet stops all blood flow while it is in place. A wall WILL NOT do that. That is the lie in the sound bite that is “build the wall”

Like trying to stop bleeding with a towel instead of a TQ, it’s better than nothing and might buy you some time but the hemorrhage will continue.

I’m not opposed to walls in places they make sense but they are no panacea and there are better uses for the rest of that money.

Put another way I am all for spending an extra $$5 billion on border security but dumping it all into building a wall is a losing proposition.

An overlooked factor is even if you built a “proper wall” along the entire border it will take years to do so. The sections of fence being built right now in TX are being built using funds appropriated during the Obama administration.

In the past we had large numbers of single Mexican males, most were quickly turned around the same day and many were repeat customers, a 170,000 mexican apprehensions in the old days might represent 50,000 individuals being apprehended 2, 3, or 4 times. And when they were apprehended, they were run for warrants and criminal history, given a sack lunch and returned via a land border ports within 24 hours with no additional paperwork.

The 170,000 you are talking about are mostly OTM and are mostly family units and kids. Since the SF judge predictably blocked implementation of the 1996 Act’ s provisions for asylum seekers waiting in Mexico pending adjudication of their claims, even if you built an impenetrable wall, all they have to do is walk across the bridge at a port of entry and say I want asylum and they get in. They may get detained for a bit (20 days max if they have a minor kid) but they cannot legally and therefore will not be force to go back into Mexico. These people aren’t stupid and the word got out a long time ago that a kid with you is a get out of jail free card. Why do you think we’re are seeing kids being rented and recycled with different illegal crossers ?

The catch 22 is if the remain in Mexico provisions are finally placed in effect, those people who were walking across the bridge will now cross illegally because once they are US soil they have a statutory and treaty obligation right to make a claim for asylum. Most of those are denied after long, expensive and pointless litigation, but we signed a treaty and passed a law making it that way so we are stuck with it for the moment. when that happens, they will do anything necessary to go over, under, through or around that wall. We already see in it section with walls. Trucks with ramps, ladders, to go over, cutting torches and jacks to go through etc. )

Then you are back to the real problem we have now which all come back to a lack of consequences for illegal entry and false claims or a consequences so delayed they are meaningless.

logistical issues include
- inability to detain family units and minors
- lack consequences for false fear claims encouraging false and frivolous fear claims which negate the expedited removal processes put in place in 1996 to alleviate the overburdened immigration court system
- Low bar for “credible fear” encouraging false claims and shoving 80% of claims into the already overburdened court system
- An 800,000 case backlog in the immigration courts and only 394 immigration judges to handle it. This is actually an increase of over 100 judges from the Obama era.
- Due to th backlog, the current wait for a non-custody immigration hearing is now 3 years and it takes more than one hearing to adjudicate most cases so it can take 5-10 years of litigation to complete cases.
- many never show up or their hearings - they are then ordered deported in absentia (or at least they are supposed to be) but they can and often do request reopening of their cases.
-if they do show up they are not taken into custody at their hearing if ordered deported.
- Even if the OTMs are denied asylum and ordered deported they must be held for weeks in order to obtain travel documents from their home country and fly them back. We literally have multiple charter flights a week going to each of the northern triangle countries but it all takes, time, money and man power. They old days of a BP Agent grabbing a van and taking people back to the bridge the same day are over.

[HCM]

I tend to agree with you 100% on this, but will point out that almost any layered defense includes a final physical barrier. I think the only folks who believe that the wall was the sole barrier to stopping the stream of criminals entering the country are the same folks who have an agenda. Whether that’s a simple orange man bad syndrome to simply opposing anything your political opponent wants is TBD. The fact is that in addition to the wall there have been other attempts to stem various tides. From travel bans, to increased enforcement...

What has been the reply:

Walls are evil and don’t work

Travel bans from high risk places are racist.

Enforcement of existing laws = kids in cages

Overt obstruction of justice via leaked ICE raids.

Overt animosity towards ICE via protesters allowed to run amok...

Face it. There is and were always more solutions to the immigration debacle proposed by various administrations over the last few decades. They are always dumbed down and demonized by the propaganda machine to insure they are “resisted” by the imbeciles that surround us.

There will be no solution to illegal immigration. EVER. There is too much power and $$ involved to warrant a solution. If the problem were solved the $$ and power would dwindle. Ever know a single dedicated beuroctat or politician who will willingly work to eliminate or reduce his own power and wealth making ability? Didn’t think so.

Something truly horrific will need to happen before anyone takes up the idea of actually doing something effective.

Walls make sense in some places but building a wall next to a natural barrier like a river makes little sense when there are areas with no barriers at all. Even in place they do work like urban areas the wall is only as good as the force patrolling it and the consequences for those caught crossing it. Our patrol force is good but consequences are lacking.

The economic interests in both illegal immigration and cross border trade are why you saw Trump back off his threats to shut down the border so quickly.

[TAZ]

...Our patrol force is good but consequences are lacking....

This x 10^Googleplex.

The root cause of our criminal immigration problem is not physical or even legal. Plenty of laws and legal tools available to use. It’s 100% lack of political will. You can spend a trillion dollars a day without addressing the political issue and still end up with millions of criminals flooding across the border.

Maybe instead if discussing how to fund a bigger wall or sensor deployments or machine gun turrets we should have a discussion of how to change the political will of our elected servants.

[Wake27]

Where has ANYONE claimed that it won't do anything? This is your straw man, not anyone else's.

Edited:

This starts with a policy - and our current policies have failed us and there are no meaningful new policies in the works.

Relying on physical walls to address a policy failure is ineffectively attempting to treat a symptom, not the problem. What do you think tens or hundreds of thousands of human beings are going to do when sitting on the far side of a fixed obstacle? (1) create a humanitarian nightmare and (2) find ways to overcome that obstacle - it's human nature.

Exactly, HCM.

There is a simple solution (example: wall) to every complex problem.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t work.

The same benefit as any other any other early warning system. Having a preview of illegal migrants from outside the Western Hemisphere and time to positively identify them before they get to the border is quite useful in sorting the threats from the guys who just want to be cab drivers.

As for a wall, as I stated, it’s a tool that has uses but the Trump camp has sold the sound bite that building a wall will completely stop all illegal border traffic. This is a lie. It won’t stop anything, if I build a wall of HESCO barriers around my FOB in Afghanistan does that mean that is all I need to keep the enemy out ? No. The wall has to be watched and defended and used in conjunction with ISR, concertina, patrols etc, etc, etc, None of those things work by themselves. It’s one part of a system of defense in depth but if the Taliban can get to the wall, they can get over it or through it...

If you google "wall won't work" there are literally dozens of articles in the first few pages. Maybe I'm the one taking the liberty here, as I honestly thought I'd seen more claims of it not doing anything, but ineffective, won't work, etc is all saying the same thing IMO.

The policy failure is the lack of consequences for illegal immigrants. There is too much to gain and not nearly enough to lose to not attempt to break the immigration laws. Sure a wall is also a band aid solution, but give me a better one. By better, I mean one that can be implemented faster, for lower cost, remain in place for as long (policy changes all the time, a big ass border wall isn't going to just disappear with a new administration), and be as effective. Yes, people will find ways around but simple logic tells me that walking across open ground is far faster than digging a tunnel. Finally, who gives a shit about a humanitarian nightmare? Especially one that is entirely self-induced? The notion that we shouldn't build a wall because it'll create a mess of people on the Mexican side of the border is ridiculous, unless I just completely misunderstood you.

[Casual Friday]

How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?

[HCM]

If you google "wall won't work" there are literally dozens of articles in the first few pages. Maybe I'm the one taking the liberty here, as I honestly thought I'd seen more claims of it not doing anything, but ineffective, won't work, etc is all saying the same thing IMO.

The policy failure is the lack of consequences for illegal immigrants. There is too much to gain and not nearly enough to lose to not attempt to break the immigration laws. Sure a wall is also a band aid solution, but give me a better one. By better, I mean one that can be implemented faster, for lower cost, remain in place for as long (policy changes all the time, a big ass border wall isn't going to just disappear with a new administration), and be as effective. Yes, people will find ways around but simple logic tells me that walking across open ground is far faster than digging a tunnel. Finally, who gives a shit about a humanitarian nightmare? Especially one that is entirely self-induced? The notion that we shouldn't build a wall because it'll create a mess of people on the Mexican side of the border is ridiculous, unless I just completely misunderstood you.

A wall is an obstacle - it will disrupt and channel those trying to cross - which helps catch them - it doesn’t cut off all flow like a tourniquet.

That brings us back to the deficiencies in post arrest process and consequences. These need to be prioritized over / before a wall.

You do seem to be misunderstanding me - a wall won’t create “a mess of people on the Mexican side” because it won’t cut off illegals crossings. It will just redirect them.

Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus during the civil war. If Trump declared a national emergency and used it to suspended the Flores settlements 20 day detention window you could use that $1 billion in DOD money to set up camps for 100% detention of all illegal crossers. Use MAC flights for deportations etc. But you would still need the legal and administrative infrastructure to make all that work.

If the word got out that illegal crossing results in a few weeks in a tent city and a trip home instead of catch and release the supply side would dry up quick. The issue is we don’t have the will to do it.

[HCM]

How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?

The Rio Grande is basically a moat and people drown crossing it all the time. Just like a wall, it’s an obstacle not a barrier.

[blues]

How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?

I see we think alike...

[Casual Friday]

The Rio Grande is basically a moat and people drown crossing it all the time. Just like a wall, it’s an obstacle not a barrier.

Does the Rio Grande have crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams?

I see we think alike...

Great minds and all.

[NEPAKevin]

How about we just dig a giant moat along the border and fill it with crocodiles and sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads?

Sharks and crocodiles tend to live in salt water which would probably complicate things, but other than that...