Week 316: The Two Second Standards Part 1

[Mr_White]

Week 316: The Two Second Standards Part 1

Results may be posted until May 12th, 2019.

Designed by: Hardwired Tactical Shooting
Range: 3 and 5 yards
Target: B8 bull (black only) - download here: https://pistol-forum.com/attachment....1&d=1322428748
Start Position: Holstered or ready
Rounds Fired: Varies
Par Time: 2 seconds

In a close range deadly force confrontation, time will be the most critical commodity. The armed citizen/officer responding to the threat will have very little time to make effective shots on the adversary (ies) posing the threat. While every fight is different, my proposal is that we must achieve effective hits (and as many as possible) within no more than a two second window at the beginning of hostilities.

This week we're going to focus on the most core aspects of the two second standards: presentation of the handgun from the holster and from ready, and shooting the B8 bull at 3 and 5 yards, with 100% hits under the time limit. We'll repeat this drill at some point in the future and widen the scope to a greater variety of tasks and distances.

String 1: Place the target at 3 yards and start in ready position of your choice. At the start signal, shoot as many rounds to the black B8 bull as possible. Record the number of hits you got within the par time. If you have any misses (shots outside the black bull) your score is zero. Overtime shots that HIT do not score any points but also do not result in a zero for the string - they just don't count for anything.

String 2: Repeat string 1, but starting from the holster.

String 3: Place the target at 5 yards and start in ready position of your choice. At the start signal, shoot as many rounds to the black B8 bull as possible. Record the number of hits you got within the par time. If you have any misses (shots outside the black bull) your score is zero. Overtime shots that HIT do not score any points but also do not result in a zero for the string - they just don't count for anything.

String 4: Repeat string 3, but starting from the holster.

If you completed all four strings with no misses, you Pass. If you have any misses, you Fail.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
Score on String 1
Score on String 2
Score on String 3
Score on String 4
Grand Total Score
Pass or Fail
Anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[ASH556]

@Mr_White, @Wayne Dobbs

Forgive my stupidity here, but I'm having trouble reconciling these concepts:

"Overtime shots that HIT do not score any points but also do not result in a zero for the string - they just don't count for anything."

"If you have any misses or overtime shots, you Fail."

So, let's say I know my draw on average should be 1.2 sec and for that target at that distance I should be shooting .20 splits. Do I just try to cram 5 shots into the target and hope I don't go over? If I check the timer and my 5th shot was at 2.01 I fail, so I'm better off just trying to shoot 4 then?

[Mr_White]

@Mr_White, @Wayne Dobbs

Forgive my stupidity here, but I'm having trouble reconciling these concepts:

"Overtime shots that HIT do not score any points but also do not result in a zero for the string - they just don't count for anything."

"If you have any misses or overtime shots, you Fail."

So, let's say I know my draw on average should be 1.2 sec and for that target at that distance I should be shooting .20 splits. Do I just try to cram 5 shots into the target and hope I don't go over? If I check the timer and my 5th shot was at 2.01 I fail, so I'm better off just trying to shoot 4 then?

Sorry about that! I guess I didn't get the original post cleaned up like I meant to after we got clarification from Wayne the last time around. Not your fault at all.

Overtime shots do not count for score but are not an automatic fail. Misses are an automatic fail, whether they are under or over time.

I think I got the incorrect verbiage out of the original post now.

[ASH556]

Equipment used Beretta 92A1, JM OWB, no concealment
Score on String 1 4 hits
Score on String 2 2 hits
Score on String 3 2 hits
Score on String 4 1 hit
Grand Total Score 9 hits
Pass or Fail pass
Anything you noticed I noticed that I need to shoot faster, but I wanted to ensure all the hits. I like this because it's open-ended.
It's not, "try and do "X" in "X" time. It's almost a "know your limits and run as fast as you can, but you still gotta get the hits" thing.


Target after 3yd string:


Target after 5yd string:


Overall times (if you add up the times you'll see that they were all well under par. Each string had a shot over and some were in the 2.08 range (so almost there)).


Having passed it cleanly, I decided to push the wheels off:

[Wayne Dobbs]

[QUOTE=ASH556;868821]
Anything you noticed I noticed that I need to shoot faster, but I wanted to ensure all the hits./QUOTE]

Go read the post in Tactics on balancing speed, accuracy and assessment. Shooting faster is not necessarily the desired result. Delivering 100% certain hits in a given time frame, on a given target in a manner that provides 100% assessment capability is the desired result. It's not a shooting drill, it's a fighting drill, the practical application of which is to be firing in a place that provides no safe backstop and that has no-shoot personnel in the scene. Think upon that set of conditions.

[ASH556]

Anything you noticed I noticed that I need to shoot faster, but I wanted to ensure all the hits./QUOTE]

Go read the post in Tactics on balancing speed, accuracy and assessment. Shooting faster is not necessarily the desired result. Delivering 100% certain hits in a given time frame, on a given target in a manner that provides 100% assessment capability is the desired result. It's not a shooting drill, it's a fighting drill, the practical application of which is to be firing in a place that provides no safe backstop and that has no-shoot personnel in the scene. Think upon that set of conditions.

Thank you sir, I appreciate the feedback. I read that post a couple days ago when it was made and just went and re-read it. My thought on shooting faster was in relation to available or defined target area. In other words, all but 2 of my shots were in the 10-ring. The available target area was the whole black, so in my mind maybe I over-refined my sight picture and trigger press on the 5yd draw and that's why I only made 1 hit in the allowable time; whereas if I had used a "good enough for the required target" sight picture I could have put 2 or 3 rounds on target in the allowable time.

Will that make a difference in a "real world shooting?" I think it depends on what the available target is. What is the value of 1 shot into a dime vs 3 shots into a tennis ball in the same timeframe? I don't know and it's probably very situationally-dependent. However, I also know that we talk about the falsehood of "one shot stops." I carry a J-frame 5/7ths of the time, so I place a very high value on putting the first (and each and every) round where it needs to go. At the same time, if it takes me 5 seconds to do so, I'm probably still going to lose the fight.

[Mr_White]

A thought:

Penetration is needed to cause a deep enough wound to force a determined threat to stop.

Accuracy (shot placement) makes penetration depth relevant.

Speed makes that accuracy relevant. If the required hit cannot be delivered in the available time frame, then accuracy isn’t useful.

The real world can inform relevant target zones/difficulties and time frames. In this case, a B8 and two seconds. This test is both accuracy AND time-intensive, imho.

Awareness, tactics, and skills, can all affect the set of conditions under which an accurate enough hit can be delivered quickly enough to matter.

[backtrail540]

M&p 2.0 5"
Jmck 2.5 under a fleece
Ready position - low ready, muzzle pointed at base of target

3 yards, low ready - 2 points (3 in 2.2, 1ot)
3 yards holster - 2 points (3 in 2.23, 1ot)
5 yards, low ready - 2 points (3 in 2.09, 1ot)
5 yards holster - 1 point (2 in 2.05, 1 ot)

Total - 7 points
Pass


3 yards, ready


3 yards, holster


5 yards, ready


5 yards, holster

I was very conservative and pushed a bit as i warmed up, as seen with the faster yet similar hits on the 5 yard portion as opposed to the 3 yard strings. I'll run it again and see how much i can push while still passing.

[LOKNLOD]

I did this cold today. By cold, I mean the first time I've shot in a month and the first time I've worked from a holster since early January. Figured it was as good a place to start as any!

PX4CC from Keeper holster.

1. 3 x 10 + 1 over = 30
2. 1 x 10 + 1 over = 10
3. 2 x 10 + 1 over = 20
4. 0 first shot 2.06 :/ = 0
Score: 60 (am I scoring this right?)
Attachment 37446


1. 4x 10 = 40
2. 1 x 10 + 1 over
3. 2 x 10
4. Miss in 1.83 low left dadburnit
I shot it again because I refuse to end on that, so
5. 1 x 10 in 1.78
Score: Fail
Attachment 37445

[Alpha Sierra]

Human reaction time is somewhere between .2 to .3 seconds. That means that you could be in the process of firing a shot with .2 splits and not be able to stop it when the beep sounds.

You decide what you're going to use as par time but I don't count anything over par unless it's > par +0.3