Latest John Wick training video...

[TGS]

BFA's (Blank firing adapters) are a cheap and obvious fix if one needs to use live rifles in an inert state for training purposes. At least as far as AR and AK variants are concerned using typical muzzle threads and A2-ish muzzle devices. For introductory/basic classes yes we need BFA's and chamber flags etc if we don't have blue guns. Blue guns are definitely best for newbies.

Honestly, though, so long as everything is shown clear to the students/instructors and there's no confusion about the scenario, it's not that big of a deal. Getting upset about people not showing clear to the camera is borderline safety virtue signalling IMHO.

Agreed in the virtue signalling part, but the safe use of actual weapons in these situations requires a line out, not a fucking BFA. A BFA allows the gas system to have back pressure to cycle a blank, it's not a good damned bullet trap.

I got no beef with using an actual weapon, but line outs are a necessity to doing so. Purposely leaving ammo in the vicinity or on your person is totally unacceptable. Full stop, end of fucking story.

The military learned this lesson years ago, and it was NOT "newbies" who shot each other. The LE community see's these lessons reared almost on an annual basis as well, almost exclusively when a class comes back from lunch and the staff fail to do a line out.

[HCountyGuy]

About 10:55 when Keanu expressed discomfort at pointing the gun at Shawn is when somebody comments on the bolt carrier having been removed. Nevertheless, I cringed because using some other sort of training aid would’ve been a bit more preferable. Much respect to Keanu for wanting to respect the rules regarding safe gun handling.

I’ve watched some of Vigilance Elite’s other videos before because they were suggested by the mighty YouTube Algorithm. The videos I watched smacked of typical former-SEAL-turned-high-speed-trainer bravado.

[Clusterfrack]

I don't understand how calling out Vigilance Elite for posting a promotional video that shows poor safety procedure is virtue signaling.

I've heard "big kid rules" used to justify some shockingly dangerous behavior, so that doesn't work for me. What is standard practice among professionals in advanced firearms training and force-on-force? Based on my experience (playing by big kid rules with the big kids), it is not what we see in this video. There are simple, unambiguous procedures that cover training with live weapons vs. training weapons. Mixing the two is a recipe for disaster.

BFA's (Blank firing adapters) are a cheap and obvious fix if one needs to use live rifles in an inert state for training purposes. At least as far as AR and AK variants are concerned using typical muzzle threads and A2-ish muzzle devices. For introductory/basic classes yes we need BFA's and chamber flags etc if we don't have blue guns. Blue guns are definitely best for newbies.

Honestly, though, so long as everything is shown clear to the students/instructors and there's no confusion about the scenario, it's not that big of a deal. Getting upset about people not showing clear to the camera is borderline safety virtue signalling IMHO.
I'm perhaps a bit jaded and grumpy about it, because people getting overly uppity about safety is literally fucking ruining the entire US Army. There needs to be a transition point in training where the cuddly bumpers and training wheels come off and it's time to play by big kid rules because advanced firearms training for force-on-force scenarios etc is a big kid game.
Being overly reliant on institutional safety measures is where most Soldiers get complacent and the fundamental goal and expectation should be zero complacency.

Regardless of the situation, it's up to students and instructors actually on-site to voice their concerns for a given scenario - which Keanu did.

[TGS]

I don't understand how calling out Vigilance Elite for posting a promotional video that shows poor safety procedure is virtue signaling.

It's not the calling out is virtue signalling, it's the "you didn't show ME clear in your video" thing.

100% agreed on your second paragraph.

[Clusterfrack]

It's not the calling out is virtue signalling, it's the "you didn't show ME clear in your video" thing.

Copy. And agree.

[JRB]

Agreed in the virtue signalling part, but the safe use of actual weapons in these situations requires a line out, not a fucking BFA. A BFA allows the gas system to have back pressure to cycle a blank, it's not a good damned bullet trap.

I got no beef with using an actual weapon, but line outs are a necessity to doing so. Purposely leaving ammo in the vicinity or on your person is totally unacceptable. Full stop, end of fucking story.

The military learned this lesson years ago, and it was NOT "newbies" who shot each other. The LE community see's these lessons reared almost on an annual basis as well, almost exclusively when a class comes back from lunch and the staff fail to do a line out.

A BFA isn't a bullet trap but it beats the shit out of nothing and it's a clear indicator to all observers that a weapon isn't immediately live. I have no idea what a 'line out' is but I'm assuming that's rodding on/rodding off or similarly having an instructor or leader verifying clear and safe on each and every weapon going in or out of a training environment. On that we agree emphatically.

We also agree on how stupid it is to have live ammo anywhere in a weapon-clear environment or scenario. That is straight-up fucking retarded and un-needed.

But the military 'learned' those lessons back in the days of finger-on-trigger 24/7 and arms rooms riddled with .45 bullet holes in the ceilings. The tradecraft of weapons handling and marksmanship have evolved considerably from that point and there's plenty of room to reel in the over-safety derp in higher leadership.
We're not gearing up a bunch of conscripts for jungle warfare or to fight Ivan in some field in Europe anymore, either - we're doing it to clear weird buildings full of weird assholes mixed with innocent civilians and the Military's overall refusal to accept that there's risk in training with firearms PERIOD and there's risk in the mission we need to train for PERIOD just kicks the can down the road to where we have 19 year old PFC's carrying SAWs clearing buildings full of living civilian no-shoots, when they'd never even done real building/MOUT training until a couple weeks before they arrived in-country. Even that training wasn't using blanks better than half the time. Worse, when it does use blanks they're likely to spend more time looking for every fucking piece of spent brass than actually training.
That is the wrong fucking answer and the number of shitty, stupid close calls we have in the live operational environment could seriously be reduced if only we took that kind of training much more seriously HERE.
To get there, leadership and group-think need to accept that it's good for 19 year old PFC's to fuck up with blanks and learn all those mistakes in that environment, and perfect their confidence in the skill-set with live ammo after they've learned from those mistakes, and THEN mobilize.
But that's now how we're doing any of this - and we're never going to get there if every asshole with a camera in a training environment needs a 5 second interruption for every weapon to get shown clear to the camera.

I don't understand how calling out Vigilance Elite for posting a promotional video that shows poor safety procedure is virtue signaling.

I've heard "big kid rules" used to justify some shockingly dangerous behavior, so that doesn't work for me. What is standard practice among professionals in advanced firearms training and force-on-force? Based on my experience (playing by big kid rules with the big kids), it is not what we see in this video. There are simple, unambiguous procedures that cover training with live weapons vs. training weapons. Mixing the two is a recipe for disaster.

My beef with it is that too many people offer nothing except whining about not showing a camera weapon-clear. But I'm equally sick of bearded gym-rats with a DD214 flapping on about tactical operational tactics in operational operations with some VIGILANCE TACTICAL SPARTAN ELITE BRIGADE tank top on, talk like they're the billyest billy badass out there, and proceed to fuck up all kinds of basics on video.

Insofar as current hi-speed standard practices - I hate to say it but whatever that is, I've never seen it and it's unlikely that I'll ever see it anywhere in the Army. I'm simply looking for an across-the-board reality check that safety with firearms in training environments is the personal fucking responsibility of each individual student and instructor, and nobody else.
We cannot make institutional or cultural demands for safety-at-all-costs and still get training that has any value. Safety-at-all-costs = never touch firearms or drive a car or go outside ever.
Sure, best practices are easy to justify and maintain, such as finger-off-trigger. Common sense should prevail as well, such as keeping live ammo off out of a training environment using a live gun that should remain clear at all times. But there's no way to please everyone's personal idea of what's safe and what isn't and still get anything done.

My concept of big kid rules is fundamentally an absolute unyielding individual responsibility to follow the 4 rules, and personal ownership of any and all fuckups therein. If you're not comfortable doing a specific exercise using a functional weapon or live ammo or whatever, it's your responsibility to speak up - back to everyone's a range officer. If you can't take correction from an RO without getting huffy when you violate one of the 4 basic rules, you shouldn't be on that range as a student. Period.

Having run dozens of ranges for misc REMF elements and Reserve elements over the years, I have seen institutional safety practices completely replace personal safety when it comes to weapons handling and marksmanship. It's created an Airsoft-style nightmare where Soldiers are so used to their weapons being unloaded and disabled that they overwhelmingly do not treat them with the respect they should.
The sooner we demand individual accountability for good practices instead of putting the water wings and training wheels on everything, the sooner we can move away from truly bone-headed mistakes and bad practices across the whole Army.

This doesn't generate competency or skilled Soldiers, this generates the perfect breeding ground for bad mistakes once shit REALLY matters.

[Clusterfrack]

Good post, @JRB. I get where you're coming from, and share your frustration with bureaucracy.

On the other hand, unless all participants share an unambiguous safety protocol that assumes mistakes will be made, someone may end up with personal ownership of an injury or death. It's not easy for some random grunt or student to step up and tell Sealy McSealface that something isn't safe--which makes Keanu's comment all the more awesome.

Safety, big kid rules, and high level training are entirely compatible. There are plenty of trainers--many on this forum--who do it every class.

Sure, best practices are easy to justify and maintain, such as finger-off-trigger. Common sense should prevail as well, such as keeping live ammo off out of a training environment using a live gun that should remain clear at all times. But there's no way to please everyone's personal idea of what's safe and what isn't and still get anything done.

My concept of big kid rules is fundamentally an absolute unyielding individual responsibility to follow the 4 rules, and personal ownership of any and all fuckups therein. If you're not comfortable doing a specific exercise using a functional weapon or live ammo or whatever, it's your responsibility to speak up - back to everyone's a range officer. If you can't take correction from an RO without getting huffy when you violate one of the 4 basic rules, you shouldn't be on that range as a student. Period.

[TGS]

A BFA isn't a bullet trap but it beats the shit out of nothing and it's a clear indicator to all observers that a weapon isn't immediately live.

A BFA indicates you have a BFA on the end of the rifle, and that's it. That might be your intent that it's not live, but it doesn't actually indicate or ensure such.

A chamber flag indicates that a weapon isn't live.

I have no idea what a 'line out' is but I'm assuming that's rodding on/rodding off or similarly having an instructor or leader verifying clear and safe on each and every weapon going in or out of a training environment. On that we agree emphatically.

Line-outs generally include your gear as well, that way people don't accidentally insert a live round into a mag or whatnot.

If a unit is only rodding barrels before going into training scenarios, that's a problem.

But the military 'learned' those lessons back in the days of finger-on-trigger 24/7 and arms rooms riddled with .45 bullet holes in the ceilings. The tradecraft of weapons handling and marksmanship have evolved considerably from that point and there's plenty of room to reel in the over-safety derp in higher leadership.

That's not the case at all.

This happened as recently as the late 90s/early 2000s, with a Force Recon unit, that didn't line out their shit and a live round inadvertently got placed into a mag, and then inadvertently placed into a Marine's chest.

__________________

In the end:

Stupid command policies should not be confused with sound safety practices, nor brought up as a red-herring when people criticize handling practices that should be rethought.

Sound safety practices do not impact a unit's training and resultant lethality.

And, more back to the OP/video, there's nothing that fucking guy is teaching that necessitates anyone lose their life because of an accident. Just get a UTM or blue gun for fuck's sake.

[Old Man Winter]

That was cringe worthy even if the bolt was removed. It appears several people had weapons in the vicinity, were they live? On another note if you wanted to bring in a SME to work with the actor, why wouldn't you turn to someone with a JSOC or HRT background?

[JHC]

I recently received similar instruction from a BTDT forum member. It was vastly more professionally conducted with fookin blue guns until we validated with live fire. Cringe worthy.

@GabeWhite