CBP Announces the Glock

[AMC]

Considering our budget situation, and a projected city $1.7 billion deficit next year, training ammo is definitely on the table again. We currently use duty ammo for everything, to avoid the problems described above. I'd like to be able to move to quarterly qualification and training, from biannual. Not gonna happen without somehow reducing expenditures. I figure at the least, we could use ttraining for Academy classes. And the purple Syntech is definitely RITA. Some idiot will still want to carry it because it matches their nails, though....

[JodyH]

In BP? Not in the circles I run in. Most are pretty savvy and stay current with training trends, etc.

Not that every PA is a "gun guy" but I'd put even the average agent against pretty much anyone in American law enforcement as far as shooting skill. And while I haven't trained with every department I've trained with enough over two decades to know we ain't too shabby.

I run a range an hour or so away from FLETC Artesia and we hold monthly USPSA and 2-Gun matches so we get a fair number of USBP Agents at our matches.
I've also helped with planning and running 2-gun charity matches for several USBP sectors in southwest Texas.
USBP are top of the LE heap when it comes to overall shooting and gun handling skills with both a rifle and handgun, especially considering the number of Agents I've RO'd at matches over the past 10+ years.
Out of 100+ different Agents over a 10+ year span I've never had a single "pucker" moment while RO'ing them, cannot say the same for any of our locals.

"Aint too shabby" indeed.

[Screwball]

Got my Glock 19 today. Very happy with it. Sights are awesome. I do like our holster setup, even though they didn’t think about the 17 length magazine pouches OFO issued... glad I picked up my own. Like the duty ammo choice; 147 grain Winchester Ranger (prefer the heavier bullets).

Only thing I don’t like is that the transition is being rushed. We were a squared away group of 5, so the FI decided to give us more ammo to practice with. Shot about 300 rounds (not including what we got for duty carry). Other groups got lucky with 200.

We had a girl that might have three months seniority on me... and me and a RSO watched her holster a few times with her finger on the trigger (luckily, no ND). While I get FLETC does a lot to build basics... I shot about 1,600 rounds down there. And with that, I felt some that graduated with me NEEDED MORE TRAINING! I really worry about the time where one of the less experienced officers have to draw their pistol out on a suspect, and instinctively “take out the slack.”

Talked with the FI today, and realized how ass-backwards this little cut of the agency is. We have a manager that feels there is not an approved holster for lights, so no lights for the entire port (funny when the head of the AOR comes by with a weapon light/holster). This FI is fighting for it, but it is going to fail. He wants everyone to have the same equipment, which I get. But he also wants us all (not just those who want a light, every officer here) to go with the Surefire X300. Sorry, but I know most officers are not going to be able to afford that. Aggravated me, since it is known we need to buy them... yet he keeps talking about getting spares so the agency can replace them.

Also found out (meaning I looked it up) that the holster for three full size lights (Surefire, Streamlight, and Inforce) and the one for three compact lights (same three brands) are identical between the sizes. So, whether you get a Surefire X300 or Streamlight TLR-1... you’ll use the same holster. Why you will force officers to buy what you want is beyond me... but I really can’t wait for some of the people at my port to move on elsewhere.

And even more finding out... the Gen 5 guns have a 1913 slot instead of the narrower Glock slot. Actually like that, since most of my lights go on long guns with Picatinny rails.

[jnc36rcpd]

Screwball, do I understand that OFO is issuing G-17 magazine carriers in conjunction with spare G-19 magazines? If so, while Irealize they may not be optimal, but do they work? I'll remark that a nearby county issues both the G-17 and G-19, but spare magazines are all G-17 which makes remarkable sense.

Agree completely on the stupidity of mandating Surefire X300's when the holster fits both that light and the TLR-1. While I don't thik I've rolled out in many years without a Surefire of some type on my person, Streamlight and other companies are definitely competing (or perhaps winning) the competition. for industry standard light.

[TCB]

Screwball, your FI (and your Manager?) can want uniformity all he wants but whatever is on the approved equipment list (should be able to find a link on the CBP homepage) is...approved for duty use. Once VF has the light bearing holsters available (or buy one with real $) order one and go qual with whatever approved light you want. Unless things are very different on the Blue side...

[TGS]

@TCB @HCM

I wonder if one of the reasons I haven't seen intermixed ammo as a problem with us is because the only people who ask for practice ammo when qualifying are generally people who can tell the difference and have a general inclination towards shooting.

We qualify using what you're carrying for duty. Walk in, shoot up what's on your belt, clean, load up with a new box and you're out. Quals do not automatically include a practice session. No practice ammo (Ranger FMJ or M882) introduced unless you are going to a training class, specifically ask for it when leaving the range, or have free-time to practice after qualifying...ex: at my first office we rented a local police range for the half day, so we could stay an extra couple hours if we wanted.

I could see it being an issue though; the lowest common denominator is pretty low.

We had a girl that might have three months seniority on me... and me and a RSO watched her holster a few times with her finger on the trigger (luckily, no ND). While I get FLETC does a lot to build basics... I shot about 1,600 rounds down there. And with that, I felt some that graduated with me NEEDED MORE TRAINING!

I think the big culprit is that LE training tends to be "SPEND-EX" style training. Get as many people on the line as your safety standards allow for RSO:shooter ratio, throw rounds down range against a general loose standard instead of personalized performance-driven standards, and minimal personalized feedback from qualified "instructors." I put instructors in quotes because LE instructors tend to not be actual skilled instructors, they're really just RSOs, and usually just blurt out bullshit that doesn't actually help anyone's shooting skill. The FIs at FLETC in particular I found to be absolutely fucking abysmal.

I honestly think that most LEOs would be better shooters even if we halved the amount of range time they get on paper but gave them more personalized shooting instruction on timers and whatnot. I honestly don't care for LE range training which is generally just a big oogie-cookie of incompetence, and rather just prefer to leave the range as soon as I'm qual'd and go shoot on my own at public range (RTSP when I was in NJ, that should be familiar to you ).

[HCM]

@TCB @HCM

I wonder if one of the reasons I haven't seen intermixed ammo as a problem with us is because the only people who ask for practice ammo when qualifying are generally people who can tell the difference and have a general inclination towards shooting.

We qualify using what you're carrying for duty. Walk in, shoot up what's on your belt, clean, load up with a new box and you're out. Quals do not automatically include a practice session. No practice ammo (Ranger FMJ or M882) introduced unless you are going to a training class, specifically ask for it when leaving the range, or have free-time to practice after qualifying...ex: at my first office we rented a local police range for the half day, so we could stay an extra couple hours if we wanted.

I could see it being an issue though; the lowest common denominator is pretty low.



I think the big culprit is that LE training tends to be "SPEND-EX" style training. Get as many people on the line as your safety standards allow for RSO:shooter ratio, throw rounds down range against a general loose standard instead of personalized performance-driven standards, and minimal personalized feedback from qualified "instructors." I put instructors in quotes because LE instructors tend to not be actual skilled instructors, they're really just RSOs, and usually just blurt out bullshit that doesn't actually help anyone's shooting skill. The FIs at FLETC in particular I found to be absolutely fucking abysmal.

I honestly think that most LEOs would be better shooters even if we halved the amount of range time they get on paper but gave them more personalized shooting instruction on timers and whatnot. I honestly don't care for LE range training which is generally just a big oogie-cookie of incompetence, and rather just prefer to leave the range as soon as I'm qual'd and go shoot on my own at public range (RTSP when I was in NJ, that should be familiar to you ).

I call them target graders rather than RSOs.

As for shooting on your own, you are a freak in that regard. Practice makes.... permanent and in many cases our coworkers wind up burning in more bad reps when the shoot on their own.

[HCM]

@TCB @HCM

I wonder if one of the reasons I haven't seen intermixed ammo as a problem with us is because the only people who ask for practice ammo when qualifying are generally people who can tell the difference and have a general inclination towards shooting.

We qualify using what you're carrying for duty. Walk in, shoot up what's on your belt, clean, load up with a new box and you're out. Quals do not automatically include a practice session. No practice ammo (Ranger FMJ or M882) introduced unless you are going to a training class, specifically ask for it when leaving the range, or have free-time to practice after qualifying...ex: at my first office we rented a local police range for the half day, so we could stay an extra couple hours if we wanted.

I could see it being an issue though; the lowest common denominator is pretty low.



I think the big culprit is that LE training tends to be "SPEND-EX" style training. Get as many people on the line as your safety standards allow for RSO:shooter ratio, throw rounds down range against a general loose standard instead of personalized performance-driven standards, and minimal personalized feedback from qualified "instructors." I put instructors in quotes because LE instructors tend to not be actual skilled instructors, they're really just RSOs, and usually just blurt out bullshit that doesn't actually help anyone's shooting skill. The FIs at FLETC in particular I found to be absolutely fucking abysmal.

I honestly think that most LEOs would be better shooters even if we halved the amount of range time they get on paper but gave them more personalized shooting instruction on timers and whatnot. I honestly don't care for LE range training which is generally just a big oogie-cookie of incompetence, and rather just prefer to leave the range as soon as I'm qual'd and go shoot on my own at public range (RTSP when I was in NJ, that should be familiar to you ).

I call them target graders rather than RSOs. They also tend to be the screamers..

As for shooting on your own, you are a freak in that regard. Practice makes.... permanent and in many cases our coworkers wind up burning in more bad reps when the shoot on their own.

[Jimichanga]

So we can make magic purple rainbows on qual days, so the PD knows who to yell at when we use their range and don’t brass up and because it makes them taste better.

Hahaha, this! There is no denying who did a crappy job policing up the brass on a borrowed PD range. The purple cases don't exactly blend in.

[TCB]

TGS, quarterly at my current Station we typically each get an ammo box with 5 slugs, 50 rounds of 5.56, a couple boxes of duty ammo and a few hundred of the purple stuff. Range magazines get stuffed and then there is a policy and law review. That amount of ammo gets us through our shotgun, rifle and pistol quals. The purple stuff is used for whatever training we do for the day and we shoot what is in our duty mags for the actual qual. Sometimes there is a couple ammo cans full of the loose training ammo to stuff mags with if we are shooting a lot...so at the end of the day it is your responsibility to reload your duty mags with duty ammo, clean your guns, prep for duty carry, head off to lunch, do computer training that’s coming due or any other admin stuff that needs to be handled (qual days are 8 hours). Add in off sight training locations, triple digit heat, and a bit of good old fashioned not giving a fuck and there are plenty of opportunities to screw something up...especially if you’re “not a gun guy” and your biggest concern is “are we getting out early?”.