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Thread: The Balance of Speed, Accuracy and Assessment

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    I think "don't outdrive your lights" applies...at least to me. Perhaps it's what got drilled into us (without using the term) as LEOs. Of course, speed and accuracy are important, but knowing why you decided to break leather and took the actions you did subsequently are paramount.

    I don't want to be dead, nor do I want to be destitute or incarcerated. I'm all for "balance". And when you've drawn on hundreds of individuals over a period of years, it reinforces how important it is to be right (each and every time).

    I speak only from my own experience. Not from a text or because someone espouses one philosophy or another. I'm sure there are scads of folks here that can out-shoot me, but my instincts / situational awareness, judgment and ability have yet to let me down. (And, knock wood, hopefully never will.)

    YMMV.
    A deceased friend spent 30 years in law enforcement that included undercover work riding with motorcycle gangs and doing stints in jails and prisons. He entered law enforcement work after serving in a government black ops program in southeast Asia during the 1960's. After he died, his former colleague told me that my friend had killed 11 men. The colleague praised my friend for having extra keen instincts maintained by a calm demeanor. I am convinced that this man never murdered anybody but do think that he would have been killed if he had adhered to some of the bullshit that we read. That statement is an opinion.

  2. #72
    Based on the discussion of ready positions, I put together this piece:

    A Study of Ready

    All hate male and indigestion with it should be addressed to @John Hearne.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  3. #73
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    I think "don't outdrive your lights" applies...at least to me. Perhaps it's what got drilled into us (without using the term) as LEOs. Of course, speed and accuracy are important, but knowing why you decided to break leather and took the actions you did subsequently are paramount.
    Yes, this is my belief too. As a civilian in a public setting, by the time the draw stroke begins the assessment has already confirmed that the use of deadly force is justified. Depending on the circumstances, the final shoot/don't shoot decision could hinge on what happens the moment the sights are aligned on the threat. It goes without saying that every practical effort to evade, escape or deescalate has already taken place.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    Based on the discussion of ready positions, I put together this piece:
    Thank-you for the link and videos, they are informative and add needed context to the subject matter being discussed.

  4. #74
    [I don't know anything about anything, so please push back if I'm full of poop]

    I think there is a big hole in the civilian training market for the crawl and walk phases of learning MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts) and assessment, or maybe I'm ignorant of the available options.

    Crawl: FATS training seems like it plays a limited, but useful role. Square range training.
    Walk: Scenario based training with dummy guns and/or Airsoft.
    Run: Shivworks material, CQB training, etc
    David S.

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by David S. View Post
    [I don't know anything about anything, so please push back if I'm full of poop]

    I think there is a big hole in the civilian training market for the crawl and walk phases of learning MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts) and assessment, or maybe I'm ignorant of the available options.

    Crawl: FATS training seems like it plays a limited, but useful role. Square range training.
    Walk: Scenario based training with dummy guns and/or Airsoft.
    Run: Shivworks material, CQB training, etc

    I highly recommend Karl Rehn's (KR Training) scenario classes. They are extremely well done and don't devolve into tactical grabassery.

    Brian Hill's (The Complete Combatant) combines solid scenario training with physical skills for the non-Thunder Dome crowd.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    As expected of this forum, a truly informative post and discussion.

    I am looking for clarity on following;

    As a civilian, I have come to believe that drawing my weapon is an act of last resort, something I would refrain from doing until the use of deadly force is justified. In my mind, the weapon is not drawn until I am 100% certain it needs to be (meets the use of deadly force as defined by state law) with the final assessment of shoot/don't shoot happening from the time the weapon is drawn to the time the sights are aligned on the threat. I believe the reasons for this are (1) to avoid a potentially unnecessary brandishing of a firearm charge and (2) to maintain the concealment of my weapon until there is both legal and ethical reasons to deadly force. In that context it seems the "low ready" is NOT something that should be part of my defensive training, but rather drawing to "contact ready."

    I fully understand how the low ready technique is one that is vitally important for LEOs, but help me understand how it might be used by the civilian in a self-defensive scenario.

    My sincere thanks for your insight.
    I had an incident last year with a knife armed edp that went from being at the “wall” on a glock trigger from shooting the guy in the face, to a low low ready, to having the gun hidden behind my leg as I was able to de-escalate the situation while waiting on the police. I remember remembering the teachings of @Dagga Boy and others with vastly more experience than me on the forum while I was dealing with that situation and what level of force it warranted at what time.

    If you didn’t catch it I did a brief write up in the coterie club here:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38266-Thanks-PF

  7. #77
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caballoflaco View Post
    I had an incident last year with a knife armed edp that went from being at the “wall” on a glock trigger from shooting the guy in the face, to a low low ready, to having the gun hidden behind my leg as I was able to de-escalate the situation while waiting on the police. I remember remembering the teachings of @Dagga Boy and others with vastly more experience than me on the forum while I was dealing with that situation and what level of force it warranted at what time.

    If you didn’t catch it I did a brief write up in the coterie club here:

    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38266-Thanks-PF
    Thanks for sharing that link!

    Question - did you re-holster as the police arrived?

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    Thanks for sharing that link!

    Question - did you re-holster as the police arrived?
    At least the dispatcher knew that we had the guy at gun point before the police arrived. Rather than making extra movements with the gun as officers approached I waited for them to tell me what to do. The first officer on scene asked me to put up the gun so that’s when I re-holstered.

  9. #79
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Interesting that the perp was able to act like a robber until you resisted. Then he switched into crazy mode. I’m not buying the mental illness.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Interesting that the perp was able to act like a robber until you resisted. Then he switched into crazy mode. I’m not buying the mental illness.
    I can’t clinically diagnose the guy, but I’ve been around enough folks who were mentally ill either from drug use, getting delt a shitty hand in brain chemistry or both that I don’t think whatever was going on in his head was an act. The police who showed up were unanimously in agreement after they got to deal with him as well.

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