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Thread: The Balance of Speed, Accuracy and Assessment

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    When things travel away from the source they get out of context or misinterpreted. How many people are teaching or ever talk about “contact ready”? The key to how I was taught the low ready from Larry Mudgett and the D platoon firearms cadre was that low ready covers nothing on another person and is usually at a fixed 45 degree angle. Contact Ready was for when you partially cover a suspect anywhere from the toes to the tip of the head and is only used when you can articulate a level of force and justification that would allow covering someone with a deadly weapon. It does not get discussed much. Many draw no differences in what version of stuff they think they are using or teaching.

    Is it me or are a bunch of things getting attributed to people who never said it, or horribly out of context lately?
    I had multiple instructors teach that low ready was pointed directly at the person with the muzzle depressed just low enough to see the hands. I've also heard ready position taught so as to point the gun directly at male suspect's groin for psychological effect.

    My take on both of the above is that they violate the cardinal safety rules; however, the contact ready that you describe I can see in certain situations, but as you said, it will require articulation of that level of force.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    I had multiple instructors teach that low ready was pointed directly at the person with the muzzle depressed just low enough to see the hands. I've also heard ready position taught so as to point the gun directly at male suspect's groin for psychological effect.

    My take on both of the above is that they violate the cardinal safety rules; however, the contact ready that you describe I can see in certain situations, but as you said, it will require articulation of that level of force.
    One of the first things I learned with heavy emphasis from Larry Mudgett was about very precise terminology to describe EXACTLY what you are trying to convey. He was also intense about not using oxymorons like “Dry Fire”. They all send a poor and confusing message to the student or audience. We have a MASSIVE issue in this industry and the training world where people simply parrot some crap without understanding of the context and if you combine that with an NRA instructor certificate and an iron on patch, it becomes somehow right. So many people have combined low ready and contact ready into one thing and a complete disregard for the Rule 2 of the four basic safety rules (often combined with a rule 3 violation) that I just shake my head and have kind of gotten to the point of saying “with choices come consequences” attitude and let Darwin and karma work it out.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  3. #53
    @Dagga Boy,

    Please provide examples of when the contact ready position described would be appropriate.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    @Dagga Boy,

    Please provide examples of when the contact ready position described would be appropriate.
    Threatening suicide with a firearm, obviously armed with a firearm or deadly weapon coupled with reasonable belief of criminal intent or in commission of a crime, concealed hands but verbal threats made of having a weapon and intent to do violence, has already committed definable felonies that allow for lethal force to prevent (aggravated kidnapping, aggravated robbery, aggravated sexual assault, etc.). Basically, situations where you can clearly define a potential lethal threat that meets a standard of reasonableness.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  5. #55
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    We were just discussing this in briefing the other night.

    A couple of the kids are beginning to get serious in their personal training programs and were considering buying a timer.

    We discussed finding a balance between being "fast enough" and shooting faster than you can analyze what's happening. Obviously, there is no one crystal clear answer, but it IS a question worth pondering.

  6. #56
    King of Craft Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Steve Anderson talks about three modes of shooting--all relative to competition:

    Speed Mode: training to get faster
    Accuracy Mode: training to get more accurate
    Match Mode: seeing what you need to see to maximize score

    Anderson argues that we should do only one at a time. That seems similar to this discussion of speed, accuracy, and assessment. We train for speed or accuracy, but need to shoot in "assessment mode" in the real world. So we need training for that as well.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Steve Anderson talks about three modes of shooting--all relative to competition:

    Speed Mode: training to get faster
    Accuracy Mode: training to get more accurate
    Match Mode: seeing what you need to see to maximize score

    Anderson argues that we should do only one at a time. That seems similar to this discussion of speed, accuracy, and assessment. We train for speed or accuracy, but need to shoot in "assessment mode" in the real world. So we need training for that as well.
    I agree. I regularly spend parts of a practice session concentrating on speed or precision.
    Since paper targets don’t “do” much when shot, I’d be interested in ideas for practicing shooting “at the speed of assessment.”

    @Dagga Boy

  8. #58
    Marginally Relevant NH Shooter's Avatar
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    As expected of this forum, a truly informative post and discussion.

    I am looking for clarity on following;

    As a civilian, I have come to believe that drawing my weapon is an act of last resort, something I would refrain from doing until the use of deadly force is justified. In my mind, the weapon is not drawn until I am 100% certain it needs to be (meets the use of deadly force as defined by state law) with the final assessment of shoot/don't shoot happening from the time the weapon is drawn to the time the sights are aligned on the threat. I believe the reasons for this are (1) to avoid a potentially unnecessary brandishing of a firearm charge and (2) to maintain the concealment of my weapon until there is both legal and ethical reasons to deadly force. In that context it seems the "low ready" is NOT something that should be part of my defensive training, but rather drawing to "contact ready."

    I fully understand how the low ready technique is one that is vitally important for LEOs, but help me understand how it might be used by the civilian in a self-defensive scenario.

    My sincere thanks for your insight.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff22 View Post
    We discussed finding a balance between being "fast enough" and shooting faster than you can analyze what's happening. Obviously, there is no one crystal clear answer, but it IS a question worth pondering.
    It's always nice to hear this being discussed, since shooting at ludicrous speed is all the rage. Shooting at assessment speed doesn't inflate the ego or garner IG stardom, which seem to be more important than doing the right thing, and going home safely, oh, and that pesky issue of being able to defend yourself in court.
    Luckily, the two guys who openly preach about this the most, are on this thread, so we're in great hands @jlw and @Dagga Boy

    Looking forward to more of this discussion, thanks.
    Last edited by Sauer Koch; 04-22-2020 at 08:06 AM. Reason: more content

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    As expected of this forum, a truly informative post and discussion.

    I am looking for clarity on following;

    As a civilian, I have come to believe that drawing my weapon is an act of last resort, something I would refrain from doing until the use of deadly force is justified. In my mind, the weapon is not drawn until I am 100% certain it needs to be (meets the use of deadly force as defined by state law) with the final assessment of shoot/don't shoot happening from the time the weapon is drawn to the time the sights are aligned on the threat. I believe the reasons for this are (1) to avoid a potentially unnecessary brandishing of a firearm charge and (2) to maintain the concealment of my weapon until there is both legal and ethical reasons to deadly force. In that context it seems the "low ready" is NOT something that should be part of my defensive training, but rather drawing to "contact ready."

    I fully understand how the low ready technique is one that is vitally important for LEOs, but help me understand how it might be used by the civilian in a self-defensive scenario.

    My sincere thanks for your insight.
    I can give you a personal example. Dude picked up a 2.5" diameter, 7 foot long piece of steel to hit me with it. He was 12-14 feet away. I drew a concealed pistol to low ready and he dropped the steel. Problem solved without shots. Pistol went back in holster. Everybody happy.

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