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Thread: The Balance of Speed, Accuracy and Assessment

  1. #41
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    In First Responder.
    Speaking of which, I have a young nephew I need to send through that class.....I already tuned up a Beretta for him, and he should be ready now.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
    Who is instructing to point muzzle left or right instead of up or down?
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I heard it from Scotty Reitz.

    I was first shown the offset ready by Shane Gosa who called it the "Metro Ready", and he said it came from Scotty Reitz. I discussed it with other Reitz grads and thought it to have been confirmed.

    I began teaching it based on specific wording in GA law.

    Since then, I have had other Reitz grads refute that it came from him. I have since quit using the term "Metro" and now just term it "offset" due to the conflict and I reference it as an option to consider.

    GA has two laws regarding pointing a pistol at another person. One, aggravated assault, is a felony charge but also has elements of intent to murder, rape, or rob. The other is "pointing a pistol at another" which is a misdemeanor charge which is the unjustified pointing of a pistol at someone.

    My line of thought is that teaching the offset ready with a full explanation of it specifically being NOT pointing the pistol at the person and used in conjunction with a verbal command and in context of a last ditch effort to NOT shoot someone is a chance to pull at the strings of GA law. I have thoroughly discussed this with local judges and lawyers who back me up as being on solid ground provided the training is documented and I back it up with expert witness testimony. I have been recognized by the Superior Court here as an expert witness in firearms training.

    To add to the above, I know a federal LEO who had an AUSA try to ruin him over the term "low ready" because the AUSA had a different connotation of the term. By using "offset ready", perhaps we can avoid any such confusion because then the question would be the technique itself rather than the differing connotations of the term.

    I firmly, steadfastly, and wholeheartedly concede and affirm that all of the above could be achieved with a properly articulated and documented low ready.

    Also of note, in the class in which I teach the technique, we shoot a course of fire containing a string in which the student draws to a proper (not muzzling target) ready position, gives a verbal command, but does NOT shoot. I specifically use this course of fire to document further document the above described training.

    If one does not agree with the described technique, okay.

    I'll add that if one of the four cardinal rules is to not point a weapon at someone/something we have not made the decision to shoot but we let students get away with "low pointed at knees or groin", we are validating a violation of said rule.
    Last edited by jlw; 02-26-2020 at 11:31 PM.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  3. #43
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    I dug out my class notes from the Reitz class I took back in 2005. This would have been one of the my classes taking notes and they are "thinner" than the notes I take currently. I did not see anything in my notes about the offset ready.

    I do remember very clearly, Uncle Scotty mentioning the technique. I don't recall if he was advocating for it or mentioning how far some people will go to avoid muzzling others. I am 100% sure I heard about the technique in that class but don't remember the specifics.

    I was amused to see "clean lines" mentioned repeatedly in my notes. HT to DB.
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I dug out my class notes from the Reitz class I took back in 2005. This would have been one of the my classes taking notes and they are "thinner" than the notes I take currently. I did not see anything in my notes about the offset ready.

    I do remember very clearly, Uncle Scotty mentioning the technique. I don't recall if he was advocating for it or mentioning how far some people will go to avoid muzzling others. I am 100% sure I heard about the technique in that class but don't remember the specifics.

    I was amused to see "clean lines" mentioned repeatedly in my notes. HT to DB.
    The clean lines terminology is in his book. He also references "modifications" of the low ready but does not address offset specifically in that portion of the book.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  5. #45
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    The clean lines terminology is in his book. He also references "modifications" of the low ready but does not address offset specifically in that portion of the book.
    K.B. calls it Metro ready too, possibly influenced by the training he's taken from Reitz. Cool info about your adaptation for GA law.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  6. #46
    I just got off the phone with Scotty. He does not in any way teach or advocate to offset that hard low ready when dealing with suspects or unknowns. What he teaches the offset for is something Wayne and I work as well. You offset ONLY when dealing with a hostage situation to the side that generally the gun is on so if you have the opportunity to engage when a window opens or circumstances dictate to engage the hostage taker without running the muzzle over the hostage/victim. Again, straight from Scotty, it is only used for a very narrow scenario involving a hostage. Scotty does a ton of work on the hostage scenarios and has all sorts of specialized targets and drills he uses for this stuff so he has also come up with some solutions on the handling side of of the equation to cover various situations that are present in those very unique and rare situations.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jlw View Post
    I was first shown the offset ready by Shane Gosa who called it the "Metro Ready", and he said it came from Scotty Reitz. I discussed it with other Reitz grads and thought it to have been confirmed.

    I began teaching it based on specific wording in GA law.

    Since then, I have had other Reitz grads refute that it came from him. I have since quit using the term "Metro" and now just term it "offset" due to the conflict and I reference it as an option to consider.

    GA has two laws regarding pointing a pistol at another person. One, aggravated assault, is a felony charge but also has elements of intent to murder, rape, or rob. The other is "pointing a pistol at another" which is a misdemeanor charge which is the unjustified pointing of a pistol at someone.

    My line of thought is that teaching the offset ready with a full explanation of it specifically being NOT pointing the pistol at the person and used in conjunction with a verbal command and in context of a last ditch effort to NOT shoot someone is a chance to pull at the strings of GA law. I have thoroughly discussed this with local judges and lawyers who back me up as being on solid ground provided the training is documented and I back it up with expert witness testimony. I have been recognized by the Superior Court here as an expert witness in firearms training.

    To add to the above, I know a federal LEO who had an AUSA try to ruin him over the term "low ready" because the AUSA had a different connotation of the term. By using "offset ready", perhaps we can avoid any such confusion because then the question would be the technique itself rather than the differing connotations of the term.

    I firmly, steadfastly, and wholeheartedly concede and affirm that all of the above could be achieved with a properly articulated and documented low ready.

    Also of note, in the class in which I teach the technique, we shoot a course of fire containing a string in which the student draws to a proper (not muzzling target) ready position, gives a verbal command, but does NOT shoot. I specifically use this course of fire to document further document the above described training.

    If one does not agree with the described technique, okay.

    I'll add that if one of the four cardinal rules is to not point a weapon at someone/something we have not made the decision to shoot but we let students get away with "low pointed at knees or groin", we are validating a violation of said rule.
    When things travel away from the source they get out of context or misinterpreted. How many people are teaching or ever talk about “contact ready”? The key to how I was taught the low ready from Larry Mudgett and the D platoon firearms cadre was that low ready covers nothing on another person and is usually at a fixed 45 degree angle. Contact Ready was for when you partially cover a suspect anywhere from the toes to the tip of the head and is only used when you can articulate a level of force and justification that would allow covering someone with a deadly weapon. It does not get discussed much. Many draw no differences in what version of stuff they think they are using or teaching.

    Is it me or are a bunch of things getting attributed to people who never said it, or horribly out of context lately?
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    When things travel away from the source they get out of context or misinterpreted. How many people are teaching or ever talk about “contact ready”? The key to how I was taught the low ready from Larry Mudgett and the D platoon firearms cadre was that low ready covers nothing on another person and is usually at a fixed 45 degree angle. Contact Ready was for when you partially cover a suspect anywhere from the toes to the tip of the head and is only used when you can articulate a level of force and justification that would allow covering someone with a deadly weapon. It does not get discussed much. Many draw no differences in what version of stuff they think they are using or teaching.

    Is it me or are a bunch of things getting attributed to people who never said it, or horribly out of context lately?
    I know this post wasn't directed to me, but the low ready I was taught and was discussing earlier in the thread is I believe more or less the same as the low ready described in this post. It is differentiated from what this post refers to as "Contact Ready" which is new to me. If I draw to a low ready and never move to "contact ready" or a true firing position, I can later articulate that I never pointed my weapon at the person.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinson View Post
    I know this post wasn't directed to me, but the low ready I was taught and was discussing earlier in the thread is I believe more or less the same as the low ready described in this post. It is differentiated from what this post refers to as "Contact Ready" which is new to me. If I draw to a low ready and never move to "contact ready" or a true firing position, I can later articulate that I never pointed my weapon at the person.
    Yes. You pointed it at the ground. In all honesty, off the range, not shooting drills and used for people management and force situations most of us are running it truly at an angle that is only about a yard in front of our offside foot.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    When things travel away from the source they get out of context or misinterpreted. How many people are teaching or ever talk about “contact ready”? The key to how I was taught the low ready from Larry Mudgett and the D platoon firearms cadre was that low ready covers nothing on another person and is usually at a fixed 45 degree angle. Contact Ready was for when you partially cover a suspect anywhere from the toes to the tip of the head and is only used when you can articulate a level of force and justification that would allow covering someone with a deadly weapon. It does not get discussed much. Many draw no differences in what version of stuff they think they are using or teaching.

    Is it me or are a bunch of things getting attributed to people who never said it, or horribly out of context lately?
    I had multiple instructors teach that low ready was pointed directly at the person with the muzzle depressed just low enough to see the hands. I've also heard ready position taught so as to point the gun directly at male suspect's groin for psychological effect.

    My take on both of the above is that they violate the cardinal safety rules; however, the contact ready that you describe I can see in certain situations, but as you said, it will require articulation of that level of force.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

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