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Thread: The Sanford Florida incident....

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    Was he legal? Based on everything released thus far, it sure looks that way. But nobody had to die that night.
    I'm not even sure about that.

    He identified the individual as suspicious.

    He called the police.

    The 911 operator told him not to pursue.

    He pursued.

    An altercation occurred which led to him discharging his firearm.

    Would a reasonable person have followed this same sequence? Did Zimmerman's decision to pursue in light of the 911 operator's comments move him into the realm of "instigating conflict" thereby negating any possible self defense claim?

    I think Zimmerman messed up the moment he ignored what the police told him to do. I think that's where he lost the right to claim self defense.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcheung View Post
    Would a reasonable person have followed this same sequence? Did Zimmerman's decision to pursue in light of the 911 operator's comments move him into the realm of "instigating conflict" thereby negating any possible self defense claim?

    I think Zimmerman messed up the moment he ignored what the police told him to do. I think that's where he lost the right to claim self defense.
    IANAL, nor do I play one on the internets, and I didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so weigh my opinion in light of that: There is no Florida statute of which I am aware that is violated simply by following somebody around, not is there any legal requirement to follow the orders of the 911 operator.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    This is why I hate the "Can I shoot him now? How 'bout now? Now?" nonsense that occurs in the "Tactics" section of firearms forums
    I agree.
    Last edited by JV_; 03-21-2012 at 07:48 AM.

  4. #14
    Member cutter's Avatar
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    Look at it from the other direction

    How many of us would have drawn on or shot Zimmerman, if we were the one walking back from 7-11?

    Asumming what is out in public is true,

    • Minding your own business,
    • Being followed by a strange truck
    • Subject gets out of truck and confronts you
    • Subject is not a police officer
    • Subject attempts to detain you (Making a assumption on this)
    • Subject displays a gun (or you fear he has one)


    Based on this I sure would have shot him.

  5. #15
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    Maybe it would have eaten at his soul if he'd done nothing.

    ;-)
    Bazinga.

    In all seriousness, though:

    This is a good example of why people who have actual experience dealing with the use of force and the aftermath of it are always advising caution. It turns out that a verbal confrontation can quickly turn into physical violence which can quickly turn into lethal levels of violence, and in the aftermath police, prosecutors, and jurors are going to be asking whether or not somebody deserved to get plugged over Gatorade or Skittles. Sure, there are lots of people on the internet who will talk all sorts of smack about your supposed obligation to wade into any situation that crops up like the Lone Friggin' Ranger and see that "justice" is done, but you know what?

    When you're standing there with the ringing in your ears and the air filled with that unmistakable aroma of burned gunpowder and blood, you suddenly realize that it's just you. You are going to have to answer for what happened all by your little lonesome. The peanut gallery of dudes on the internet who think that they have the legal right to kill people for simple trespass and pistol whip those who cut in line or cut them off in traffic won't be answering the uncomfortable questions from the cops. You will. They won't be paying your lawyer's bills, either. You will. It won't be their house and retirement at stake in a potential civil trial. It will be yours.

    Whenever that internet bravado bullhonkey gets put into practical application it turns into an epic goat rodeo for the person stupid enough to have put it into play.

    Might this be the reason that the people who are actually familiar what happens in real interrogation rooms and court rooms urge caution while those whose knowledge of the legal system comes entirely from internet forums and that "don't talk to the police!" youtube video think you can kill someone for looking at you funny?

    Things that make you go "Hmmm..."

    In life you may get hit by a truck. It's stupid, though, to put yourself into the path of an oncoming truck because you believe the people who are warning you about the danger are somehow cowards.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 03-21-2012 at 07:55 AM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    IANAL, nor do I play one on the internets, and I didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, so weigh my opinion in light of that: There is no Florida statute of which I am aware that is violated simply by following somebody around, not is there any legal requirement to follow the orders of the 911 operator.
    I didn't intend to imply that he broke any laws by doing what he did.

    To clarify: In my opinion, he severely degraded the reasonableness of his self-defense claim by:
    1. Following an individual he reported to the police as being suspicious
    2. Not heeding police advice to stop following the individual
    3. Confronting an individual he reported to the police as being suspicious


    Chapter 776 of Florida's statutes spell out the Justification for the Use of Force. I'm going to quote 776.041, "Use of force by an aggressor" which stipulates conditions in which use of force in self defense is not justifiable (emphasis mine):
    776.041 Use of force by aggressor.--The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    1. Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    2. Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
      • Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
      • In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
    In reading what facts are available, it appears to me that Zimmerman provoked Martin to use force against him. Furthermore, it does not appear that Martin used "force...so great that [Zimmerman] reasonably believes he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm...[and Zimmerman] has exhausted every reasonable means to escape..." NOR does it appear that Zimmerman "in good faith...withdraws from physical contact with the assailant."

    Martin was unarmed, that much we know. Zimmerman did not run away, that much we know. In a normal self defense situation, where Zimmerman had not instigated the conflict by pursuing an individual he identified as being suspicious, the "stand your ground" rule is in effect. But in this scenario, I believe (and IANAL) he lost that right and had full duty to retreat. Which he did not.

    End transmission.

  7. #17
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    We will likely never know exactly what happened in the exchange between the two. What I do know is Zimmerman is gonna be in and out of court, both criminally and civil, for a long time and will probably be in a soup line at the end of it all. The funniest thing about the whole situation is several of the news agencies called Zimmerman a "white hispanic", which I suppose is them trying to make it more of a race thing by throwing in a "white".

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by secondstoryguy View Post
    The funniest thing about the whole situation is several of the news agencies called Zimmerman a "white hispanic", which I suppose is them trying to make it more of a race thing by throwing in a "white".
    Sidebar: "White hispanic" is also used by the U.S. Census Bureau. "White" is a race, "hispanic" is an ethnicity. So one can be both white and hispanic.

    http://www.census.gov/population/race/

  9. #19
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by secondstoryguy View Post
    We will likely never know exactly what happened in the exchange between the two. What I do know is Zimmerman is gonna be in and out of court, both criminally and civil, for a long time and will probably be in a soup line at the end of it all. The funniest thing about the whole situation is several of the news agencies called Zimmerman a "white hispanic", which I suppose is them trying to make it more of a race thing by throwing in a "white".
    The media is never lacking in the impulse to turn a use of force into a racial issue...just like the originally linked article attempts to do. Granted we hear all the time how the dead dude was a great guy putting his life together and how he was a gentle soul that was always happy and smiling (a real description of an attempted armed robber in Virginia some time ago), but in this case it looks as if the dead teenager genuinely wasn't doing anything.

    A reluctance to involve oneself in stuff that doesn't absolutely require their involvement...and maybe a friggin' flashlight to go along with that heater...might be a wise strategy for someone who doesn't want to become the face of racism in the United States.

  10. #20
    Member Sparks2112's Avatar
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    Is it sad I made assumptions about zimmerman's personality and mindset based off of the information he used a keltec 9mm?
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