Army to kil "Alt-C" Course of Fire

[Drang]

Army to kill marksmanship shortcut that made soldiers less deadly - We Are The Mighty

The U.S. Army's new strategy to improve marksmanship will eliminate a shortcut that units use for individual weapon qualification — a long-standing practice that has eroded lethality over the years, infantry officials said.

Army officials at the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Georgia are awaiting final approval of the new marksmanship manual that will prepare the Army for a new, and much more challenging, qualification test.

The new course of fire — which forces soldiers to make faster decisions while firing from new positions — will drastically update the current, Cold War-era rifle qualification course. That course required soldiers to engage a series of pop-up targets at ranges out to 300 meters.

The stricter qualification standards will also do away with the practice of using the Alternate Course of Fire, or Alt. C, to satisfy the annual qualification requirement, Sgt. 1st Class John Rowland, marksmanship program director at Benning's Infantry School, told Military.com.

Alt-C being the 25 meter qualification course, AKA "cheating."

When you read the whole thing, it says that Alt C will still be available for units that are deployed and have no access to the full range, but it will only "extend" a soldier's qualification; that is, if you're a Marksman and you shoot 40 out of 40 on Alt C, you're still a Marksman.

I'm curious about the likelihood that combat support units will go to the effort to train and maintain marksmanship at the desired levels.

[Cypher]

I'm curious about the likelihood that combat support units will go to the effort to train and maintain marksmanship at the desired levels.

When I was assigned to USA MEDDAC I didn't even have an assigned individual weapon. I didn't go to the range for 2 and a half years.

[Wake27]

Army to kill marksmanship shortcut that made soldiers less deadly - We Are The Mighty

Alt-C being the 25 meter qualification course, AKA "cheating."

When you read the whole thing, it says that Alt C will still be available for units that are deployed and have no access to the full range, but it will only "extend" a soldier's qualification; that is, if you're a Marksman and you shoot 40 out of 40 on Alt C, you're still a Marksman.

I'm curious about the likelihood that combat support units will go to the effort to train and maintain marksmanship at the desired levels.

It won’t be great, unless a massive culture shift comes out of nowhere. To be fair though, range and ammo availability can very easily make it extremely difficult for live fire and balancing it with the shit ton of other responsibilities is rarely easy.


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[revchuck38]

I can see this making life really difficult for RC units. Many CS/CSS units don't do unit-level annual training, but get farmed out to augment AC units to get hands-on experience in their MOS. Weapons qual is usually done in a dedicated weekend drill, usually at a local PD range. A workaround would be to require the popup range as part of their pre-deployment workup.

[ranger]

I can see this making life really difficult for RC units. Many CS/CSS units don't do unit-level annual training, but get farmed out to augment AC units to get hands-on experience in their MOS. Weapons qual is usually done in a dedicated weekend drill, usually at a local PD range. A workaround would be to require the popup range as part of their pre-deployment workup.

This will be a huge issue for National Guard and Reserve units. My units were always blessed as we have multiple large Army bases in Georgia - we normally qualified individual, crew served, plus BFV/M1/Paladin (back when we were Heavy) at FT Stewart. However, many Reserve and National Guard units do not have access to those type ranges. Remember - every soldier-unit will go to a Mobilization station and requalify before deploying. It all comes down to time management. This will be even worse as the new APFT will consume at least one weekend a year - maybe two weekends.

[KeeFus]

Speaking from experience, I'd be surprised if they get rid of that, especially for support units.

When I was in (1989-1993) I only shot on a true 300 yard range during basic & obtained "Expert". However, when I got to permanent party all we used were the ALT-C qualifications for rifle...and that spanned two separate duty stations after OSUT.

Currently my son is in a support unit for 3ID and they initially qualified on the ALT-C but a few weeks later went to a 300 yard range on Stewart...and he finally qualified Expert.

There are many, and I mean MANY, people in the Army that barely qualify on the ALT-C. I have seen scores of people, both Officer and Enlisted, barely pass on it. But that's what happens when you only get your gun twice a year...only to qualify with it.

[Suvorov]

There are many, and I mean MANY, people in the Army that barely qualify on the ALT-C. I have seen scores of people, both Officer and Enlisted, barely pass on it. But that's what happens when you only get your gun twice a year...only to qualify with it.

Yeah, if only they lived in a country that allowed people who own personal firearms and practice marksmanship on their own!? I realize this won't work for most OCONUS soldiers but this is always something that pissed me off - if you PT'ed on your days off - you were a PT Animal but if you hit the range on your days off - you are some sort of gun nut. Every soldier knows that if they want to get better at PT, they have to do it on their off time, well marksmanship is no different. Unless they are in a HSLD unit - they will not get nearly enough range time to be really proficient with their weapon but as @Wake27 pointed out - none of this will change unless there is a massive culture shift.

[Wake27]

Yeah, if only they lived in a country that allowed people who own personal firearms and practice marksmanship on their own!? I realize this won't work for most OCONUS soldiers but this is always something that pissed me off - if you PT'ed on your days off - you were a PT Animal but if you hit the range on your days off - you are some sort of gun nut. Every soldier knows that if they want to get better at PT, they have to do it on their off time, well marksmanship is no different. Unless they are in a HSLD unit - they will not get nearly enough range time to be really proficient with their weapon but as @Wake27 pointed out - none of this will change unless there is a massive culture shift.

I could count on one hand the number of people that would even go to the range outside of work from my last BN. And that was still just paper punching.

[TQP]

Mil types aren't any more gun people than cops are, on the average.

I had a guy in my unit freak the hell out that I was carrying around a personally owned 1911 (unloaded, holstered, under my BDU blouse which is why he didn't notice until Saturday afternoon) Our commander was willing to let us qualify on pistols that year, those that wanted to, until the ammo ran out. My response was, 'You're carrying an automatic weapon, and so am I, and you're worried about my pistol?

Out of the 80 or so in my unit, I know of about 4 who shot outside of 'work' . We had some hunters, but Ohio was a shotgun only state at the time.

Disclaimer: this was cold war era USAR ( I got out when I was un-stoplossed after Desert Storm) and hopefully things are different now.

[Dave J]

Yeah, if only they lived in a country that allowed people who own personal firearms and practice marksmanship on their own!? I realize this won't work for most OCONUS soldiers but this is always something that pissed me off - if you PT'ed on your days off - you were a PT Animal but if you hit the range on your days off - you are some sort of gun nut. Every soldier knows that if they want to get better at PT, they have to do it on their off time, well marksmanship is no different. Unless they are in a HSLD unit - they will not get nearly enough range time to be really proficient with their weapon but as @Wake27 pointed out - none of this will change unless there is a massive culture shift.

If I was king for a day, Marksmanship Proficiency Pay would be a thing, with rigorous testing required to earn it.

We've had Foreign Language Proficiency pay for a long time, because we recognize those skills require years of time and effort to build and maintain. Why can't we accept that the same is true of marksmanship? It seems to have worked pretty well for the LAPD.