Step-son is considering joining the military

[Alpha Sierra]

Beyond school he is always late, he has no interest in driving, he lacks motivation, addicted to video games, etc in general he has seemed to have reverted to a 13 year old in an 18 year old body.

I will say that when he is told do something he will do it and do it well, the problem is he is not performing well under his own self discipline.

The two things above are HUGE red flags for me. You seem to be under the impression that military personnel are always told what to do and are always under direct supervision.

I'm here to tell you that is not the case and that individual initiative and the ability to take your direct superior's intent and turn that into execution are extremely important.

Even junior enlisted personnel cannot be directly supervised at all times and they need to be able to not only take direct orders but also understand that certain standards are to be met at all times whether you are being told to or not, or whether someone is watching you or not.

It sounds like he has a lack of motivation for some reason and the way he is currently acting if it continued would honestly make him a drain on any unit he is assigned to... Its not just about PT. Let him know that contrary to what the public believes, the .mil is not where lackluster youth go to figure themselves out. That time is past... If he does not perform then they will send him out the door with a quickness, most likely with a discharge type that doesnt look good on future applications elsewhere... If he wants to work and perform.... then welcome to the service, glad to have you. We are having trouble meeting recruiting goals...mostly due to the above mentioned issues.

I agree with the above and I will say that you and your wife should be prepared for the possibility that he might come home early with a general (or worse) discharge.

For the sake of disclosure my entry into the service was through USNA and that is one environment where non-hard chargers perish hard and quick. Also, as a division officer (equivalent to platoon leader), the least favorite task of my NCOs was dealing with unmotivated slackers.

[jamautry]

It seems I have overstated the problem. So in an effort to steer this back to what to ask the recruiters I will say this. The classes he is getting D's in are AP Calculus, AP English, and AP Government. As I mentioned before he has a part time job over the last year and has done well and been promoted.

When I say he lacks motivation and self discipline but performs well under supervision here is an example. He is on the tennis team, when they travel to an event he will volunteer to help the coach load up all of the equipment into the bus, he will stay late to help unload the bus and perform any function to help out during the match. Which is all positive however, he says he wants to get better at tennis but is not motivated to put in the extra time to practice.

This past weekend he volunteered with the NHS group to go up and clean the school for four hours

I will say that since he realizes joining the military is an option he has been motivated enough to look information up online and talk to the Marine recruiter at school and seems genuinely excited to see the Air Force recruiter tomorrow.

I believe this is a case of a kid who is burnt out on school and unsure of how he wanted to proceed.

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[BehindBlueI's]

I believe this is a case of a kid who is burnt out on school and unsure of how he wanted to proceed.

With the volunteering, also sounds like a kid looking for a purpose. If he doesn't become disillusioned with it, the military can definitely give one a purpose.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the "but he could fail" posts. Sure he can. He could fail at a lot of things. But he could also succeed, or at very least learn something about the world and about himself.

[JRB]

I am currently an Army Reserve Administrator (formerly called a Unit Administrator) and I'm an NCO with 10 years of experience in the Army. I enlisted as a 26 year old after I got laid off from all three of my jobs between June and August of 2008. I professionally work with Army Recruiters to fill shortages in my current Reserve unit and I talk to several of them almost daily.

Recruiters are ridden very hard these days to produce numbers but over 2/3rds of the existing population is ineligible to join the military in any capacity. A potential recruit with an 81 AFQT score that's physically fit with a clean record will be a tier 1 candidate which means your son will basically have his choice of whatever is available, and he will be eligible for the maximum possible enlistment incentive packages.
In just the Army Reserve that often means $20,000 bonuses and a $50k student loan repayment benefit, as well as a Chapter 1606 Montgomery GI bill kicker which can mean up to ~$600/mo to go to college and go to unit drill weekends. Plus very cheap Tricare Reserve Select health insurance ($46/mo for a single Reservist) plus Tuition Assistance, etc, for signing a 6-year contract to just be a Reserve Soldier.

For active duty, it can be even better for an even shorter contract. Knowing what I know now, I would strongly and emphatically recommend active duty over any initial enlistment into the Reserve or National Guard. With that AFQT his line scores should easily meet the requirements for more tech-heavy things like 35 series MILINT and 25 series commo MOS's that will not only get you a Secret Clearance but line you up for a TS/SCI clearance - and a lot of the 25-series commo/IT lanes actually require civilian certifications like MCP, Cisco certs, etc so you will get those certifications just by serving and that lines you up NICELY for a civilian career on the outside. It also means you'll be living better than most of the infantry/combat arms types since those folks are almost always living at a Battalion level or higher.

If becoming a Warrant Officer pilot sounds good, ask the Recruiter about that because if your Son can pass a flight physical they sometimes have options that fast-track a strong candidate into aviation. That would be an incredibly kick-ass and lucrative path. Honestly that was my dream job but due to astigmatism and age I did not qualify. New PRK and LASIK options for vision correction are accepted now for Flight certification, which wasn't the case at the time I tried to go that route.

But here's some good basic ground rules I'd suggest for anyone talking to Recruiters of any branch:

-Go to at least two different recruiters from two different offices for a given branch. The Army Recruiting Command (USAREC) has been hurting like crazy to recruit Soldiers and this means they've been shoving people into Recruiting that don't really want to be there, and are keeping people in Recruiting that really suck at Recruiting. Other branches are the same. So going to two different recruiters and asking the same questions ensures you can avoid someone that just sucks/doesn't know the system and also ensure you're getting the right answers.
Army-wise, try to find the Sergeant First Class (SFC) or E7 that's senior in that recruiting center instead of talking to an E5 SGT or E6 SSG - typically they'll have a better handle on all the stuff available and how things work.
Generally speaking, Recruiters can't BS people as much as they once could - everything is in the paperwork and Recruiters that promise bogus things get in quite a bit of trouble. They will embellish the hell out of how cool a given job is, though, so make sure to do your own research on whatever MOS is being considered before committing to a given MOS.

-Ask all the questions you can. Everything you can think of. Ask both recruiters you talk to the same questions. Any paperwork you get from the Army discussing incentives like Bonuses, etc will be shown on the DA3540 and Bonus Addendum. In the past 5-6 years I have seen exactly one instance out of hundreds of enlistments and re-enlistments when a bonus promised by a Recruiter didn't end up on the contract - and that was an admin error on the Recruiting side of things and we got that fixed.

-Active duty first. The Reserve or National Guard is great if you've already done some active duty time, and you're done with active duty but you don't want to leave forever. Initially enlisting into Reserve/National Guard status just sucks because you will not have anywhere near the same opportunities for schools and cool stuff as a straight reservist and your career will always kind of flounder because of that. So I would lean strongly toward a 3 or 4 year active duty contract first, after which your Son can decide to re-up, go Reserve/Guard, or ETS entirely.

-Aside from MILINT/Commo-based MOS's, strongly consider medical as well. It's a hell of a thing to get an LPN education as a 68C and be on active duty as an E3 or E4 the whole time instead of paying tens of thousands for school. Same for x-ray techs, medics, etc.
I believe it requires a 90+ on the AFQT score, but the Army also does scholarships and guaranteed medical commissions for strong candidates that want to be an Army Nurse or Army Doctor. But you'll have to talk to an Army medical recruiter to get the details on that - and any local Army Recruiter should be able to put you in touch with a medical recruiter to discuss that option if your son is eligible.

-If you want a combat arms MOS, Airborne school, etc - the initial contract is the time to get it. Getting Airborne school or Air Assault can be a real pain in the ass in a lot of areas if it's not included in your enlistment contract. So if your Son has *ANY* interest in going infantry, tanker, cav scout, or any of that kind of stuff - do it on the first contract and sign the SHORTEST contract possible for that MOS. You can re-up into other commo/milint/etc lanes later with a strong ASVAB but there usually won't be as many MOS options for folks re-upping as there are for initial entry. That doesn't make any sense to me but that's the Army for you.

-On that note, the Military is not a logical organization. It's an environment of constantly illogical stupid shit and if your son cannot roll with the punches when something doesn't make sense, or your son has the constant need to question the how and why of any given tasker - the military will be very hard for him. Mental flexibility and a focus on completing the task first without any BSing and weaseling will make him a favorite in his chain of command regardless of MOS or branch or anything else.

Now for the more subjective things I can offer about each branch:

Army -
Widest variety of career paths. Easy to rise to the top because the Army has the lowest standards in a lot of lanes. Faster promotions especially if you're good at your job. Lots of school opportunities and other incentives.
Army bases are built in the worst possible places for weather and nearby civilization. Barracks, living conditions in the field, etc, also tends to suck.
The only world-travel options are Germany (awesome) Korea (meh) and misc Army bases all over CENTCOM and deployment-ish environments (meh).
Dealing with fellow Soldiers can be a real fucking pain because the Army has the lowest standards.
The current dress uniforms are stupid and look stupid.
Admin functions tend to be awful in the Army compared to other branches so it takes a lot of individual effort by the Soldier to ensure their records, pay, etc stay right.
Deployments can range from amazing to absolute frothing microwaved dog shit.
Overall the Army is reg-heavy and uncoordinated about enforcing those regs, so you can find some units promoting people that barely pass their PT tests while other units require much higher standards to promote. Expect life to be unfair and the Army will not disappoint you. This is true across all branches but the Army is the clear leader in that lane.

Marines -
Combat centric and the very least PC nonsense of any of the other branches. You are either an effective Marine or you are a shitbird and they are swift to deal with shitbirds.
OK variety of career paths but you have the LEAST control of your career path as a Marine vs any other branches.
Decent bases and base locations (Okinawa, Pendelton, etc) lots of other travel options piggybacking with the Navy.
Indisputably the best uniforms, and equipment is either ancient and barely works or is new and high speed and kick ass - no in between.
There's no fuckery like Marine fuckery. Marines that get into trouble go the extra mile with that trouble, and mass punishment is still popular.
Deployments tend to be combat centric - you're either guarding something or you're putting boot to ass. You'll deploy a lot, too.
Marine elements tend to be the fairest and most equitable about enforcing standards across the board for all Marines.

Air Force -
Best bases, best food, most comfortable living accommodations, shortest deployments that are usually in the safest parts of the AO. The most PC-centric of all the branches and that can be a really overbearing pain in the ass sometimes. The least combat focused of any of the branches and there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in unit culture between Security Forces (who are basically the Army grunts of the USAF, and get a lot of shit within the USAF for it) the sexy hi-speeds like TACP and PJ's - which all tend to be meat-eaters with a meat-eater unit culture - and the research/support elements of the USAF who barely ever qualify with or ever even see a weapon. Working with the latter element is more like working with a bunch of super-PC GS civilians than it is working with the military. Worst for rapid enlisted-side promotions - and IMHO there's a very PC-driven culture on selecting who gets promoted and it's not uncommon to see a decent troop barely making E6 after 10 or 12 years.

Navy - I know the least about the Navy due to being in the Army and not having many opportunities to work with them. What I do know, is they've got the best options by far for seeing the world, but are the worst by far if you hate confined spaces, 12hr/7day work weeks, and doing two people's jobs at the same time. The Navy has a lot more of a 'do what makes sense' culture than the Army, and the Navy also has more of a 'just get it fucking done' attitude, which I envy. I've also seen a lot more E7's and E8's in their 20's early 30's in the Navy than in the Army. The Navy also seems less inclined to hold on to shitty personnel than the Army.

Anyway, that's all just my long-winded two cents. If you have more specific questions, especially about the Army or want to double-check what an Army Recruiter is telling you, I would be delighted to assist.

[jamautry]

I am currently an Army Reserve Administrator (formerly called a Unit Administrator) and I'm an NCO with 10 years of experience in the Army. I enlisted as a 26 year old after I got laid off from all three of my jobs between June and August of 2008. I professionally work with Army Recruiters to fill shortages in my current Reserve unit and I talk to several of them almost daily.

Recruiters are ridden very hard these days to produce numbers but over 2/3rds of the existing population is ineligible to join the military in any capacity. A potential recruit with an 81 AFQT score that's physically fit with a clean record will be a tier 1 candidate which means your son will basically have his choice of whatever is available, and he will be eligible for the maximum possible enlistment incentive packages.
In just the Army Reserve that often means $20,000 bonuses and a $50k student loan repayment benefit, as well as a Chapter 1606 Montgomery GI bill kicker which can mean up to ~$600/mo to go to college and go to unit drill weekends. Plus very cheap Tricare Reserve Select health insurance ($46/mo for a single Reservist) plus Tuition Assistance, etc, for signing a 6-year contract to just be a Reserve Soldier.

For active duty, it can be even better for an even shorter contract. Knowing what I know now, I would strongly and emphatically recommend active duty over any initial enlistment into the Reserve or National Guard. With that AFQT his line scores should easily meet the requirements for more tech-heavy things like 35 series MILINT and 25 series commo MOS's that will not only get you a Secret Clearance but line you up for a TS/SCI clearance - and a lot of the 25-series commo/IT lanes actually require civilian certifications like MCP, Cisco certs, etc so you will get those certifications just by serving and that lines you up NICELY for a civilian career on the outside. It also means you'll be living better than most of the infantry/combat arms types since those folks are almost always living at a Battalion level or higher.

If becoming a Warrant Officer pilot sounds good, ask the Recruiter about that because if your Son can pass a flight physical they sometimes have options that fast-track a strong candidate into aviation. That would be an incredibly kick-ass and lucrative path. Honestly that was my dream job but due to astigmatism and age I did not qualify. New PRK and LASIK options for vision correction are accepted now for Flight certification, which wasn't the case at the time I tried to go that route.

But here's some good basic ground rules I'd suggest for anyone talking to Recruiters of any branch:

-Go to at least two different recruiters from two different offices for a given branch. The Army Recruiting Command (USAREC) has been hurting like crazy to recruit Soldiers and this means they've been shoving people into Recruiting that don't really want to be there, and are keeping people in Recruiting that really suck at Recruiting. Other branches are the same. So going to two different recruiters and asking the same questions ensures you can avoid someone that just sucks/doesn't know the system and also ensure you're getting the right answers.
Army-wise, try to find the Sergeant First Class (SFC) or E7 that's senior in that recruiting center instead of talking to an E5 SGT or E6 SSG - typically they'll have a better handle on all the stuff available and how things work.
Generally speaking, Recruiters can't BS people as much as they once could - everything is in the paperwork and Recruiters that promise bogus things get in quite a bit of trouble. They will embellish the hell out of how cool a given job is, though, so make sure to do your own research on whatever MOS is being considered before committing to a given MOS.

-Ask all the questions you can. Everything you can think of. Ask both recruiters you talk to the same questions. Any paperwork you get from the Army discussing incentives like Bonuses, etc will be shown on the DA3540 and Bonus Addendum. In the past 5-6 years I have seen exactly one instance out of hundreds of enlistments and re-enlistments when a bonus promised by a Recruiter didn't end up on the contract - and that was an admin error on the Recruiting side of things and we got that fixed.

-Active duty first. The Reserve or National Guard is great if you've already done some active duty time, and you're done with active duty but you don't want to leave forever. Initially enlisting into Reserve/National Guard status just sucks because you will not have anywhere near the same opportunities for schools and cool stuff as a straight reservist and your career will always kind of flounder because of that. So I would lean strongly toward a 3 or 4 year active duty contract first, after which your Son can decide to re-up, go Reserve/Guard, or ETS entirely.

-Aside from MILINT/Commo-based MOS's, strongly consider medical as well. It's a hell of a thing to get an LPN education as a 68C and be on active duty as an E3 or E4 the whole time instead of paying tens of thousands for school. Same for x-ray techs, medics, etc.
I believe it requires a 90+ on the AFQT score, but the Army also does scholarships and guaranteed medical commissions for strong candidates that want to be an Army Nurse or Army Doctor. But you'll have to talk to an Army medical recruiter to get the details on that - and any local Army Recruiter should be able to put you in touch with a medical recruiter to discuss that option if your son is eligible.

-If you want a combat arms MOS, Airborne school, etc - the initial contract is the time to get it. Getting Airborne school or Air Assault can be a real pain in the ass in a lot of areas if it's not included in your enlistment contract. So if your Son has *ANY* interest in going infantry, tanker, cav scout, or any of that kind of stuff - do it on the first contract and sign the SHORTEST contract possible for that MOS. You can re-up into other commo/milint/etc lanes later with a strong ASVAB but there usually won't be as many MOS options for folks re-upping as there are for initial entry. That doesn't make any sense to me but that's the Army for you.

-On that note, the Military is not a logical organization. It's an environment of constantly illogical stupid shit and if your son cannot roll with the punches when something doesn't make sense, or your son has the constant need to question the how and why of any given tasker - the military will be very hard for him. Mental flexibility and a focus on completing the task first without any BSing and weaseling will make him a favorite in his chain of command regardless of MOS or branch or anything else.

Now for the more subjective things I can offer about each branch:

Army -
Widest variety of career paths. Easy to rise to the top because the Army has the lowest standards in a lot of lanes. Faster promotions especially if you're good at your job. Lots of school opportunities and other incentives.
Army bases are built in the worst possible places for weather and nearby civilization. Barracks, living conditions in the field, etc, also tends to suck.
The only world-travel options are Germany (awesome) Korea (meh) and misc Army bases all over CENTCOM and deployment-ish environments (meh).
Dealing with fellow Soldiers can be a real fucking pain because the Army has the lowest standards.
The current dress uniforms are stupid and look stupid.
Admin functions tend to be awful in the Army compared to other branches so it takes a lot of individual effort by the Soldier to ensure their records, pay, etc stay right.
Deployments can range from amazing to absolute frothing microwaved dog shit.
Overall the Army is reg-heavy and uncoordinated about enforcing those regs, so you can find some units promoting people that barely pass their PT tests while other units require much higher standards to promote. Expect life to be unfair and the Army will not disappoint you. This is true across all branches but the Army is the clear leader in that lane.

Marines -
Combat centric and the very least PC nonsense of any of the other branches. You are either an effective Marine or you are a shitbird and they are swift to deal with shitbirds.
OK variety of career paths but you have the LEAST control of your career path as a Marine vs any other branches.
Decent bases and base locations (Okinawa, Pendelton, etc) lots of other travel options piggybacking with the Navy.
Indisputably the best uniforms, and equipment is either ancient and barely works or is new and high speed and kick ass - no in between.
There's no fuckery like Marine fuckery. Marines that get into trouble go the extra mile with that trouble, and mass punishment is still popular.
Deployments tend to be combat centric - you're either guarding something or you're putting boot to ass. You'll deploy a lot, too.
Marine elements tend to be the fairest and most equitable about enforcing standards across the board for all Marines.

Air Force -
Best bases, best food, most comfortable living accommodations, shortest deployments that are usually in the safest parts of the AO. The most PC-centric of all the branches and that can be a really overbearing pain in the ass sometimes. The least combat focused of any of the branches and there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in unit culture between Security Forces (who are basically the Army grunts of the USAF, and get a lot of shit within the USAF for it) the sexy hi-speeds like TACP and PJ's - which all tend to be meat-eaters with a meat-eater unit culture - and the research/support elements of the USAF who barely ever qualify with or ever even see a weapon. Working with the latter element is more like working with a bunch of super-PC GS civilians than it is working with the military. Worst for rapid enlisted-side promotions - and IMHO there's a very PC-driven culture on selecting who gets promoted and it's not uncommon to see a decent troop barely making E6 after 10 or 12 years.

Navy - I know the least about the Navy due to being in the Army and not having many opportunities to work with them. What I do know, is they've got the best options by far for seeing the world, but are the worst by far if you hate confined spaces, 12hr/7day work weeks, and doing two people's jobs at the same time. The Navy has a lot more of a 'do what makes sense' culture than the Army, and the Navy also has more of a 'just get it fucking done' attitude, which I envy. I've also seen a lot more E7's and E8's in their 20's early 30's in the Navy than in the Army. The Navy also seems less inclined to hold on to shitty personnel than the Army.

Anyway, that's all just my long-winded two cents. If you have more specific questions, especially about the Army or want to double-check what an Army Recruiter is telling you, I would be delighted to assist.

Thank you very much for your informative post. I will take your advise.

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[Yung]

Thank you for your clarifications. I'd caution that the only thing left that really sticks out to me about the explanation behind your stepson's grades and attendance is that it is entirely possible that he may get to his first unit and find himself disillusioned and/or burned out. But that's getting a bit ahead of things and I think that some of the questions he should ask the recruiter should include what steps he can take to prepare to succeed his initial training with distinction.

For example at the end of my OSUT, I received a battalion coin and CoA for earning a perfect score on M9 qual and reciting a spiel about the regimental distinctive insignia when it became clear that the distinguished honor grad was struggling to memorize it in during graduation rehearsals because he had more than enough on his plate to keep his title.

From there, probably the easiest important question I'd ask would be what the recruiter attributed the most to his/her success, including things they learned as joes/junior NCOs that they wish someone had told them earlier. We could probably have a very long thread with our .mil members on that topic alone.

Saving my money is one of the small things I took pride in looking back at my career. The senior NCO at my recruiting station explained the details of a 401k to me before I even put my name on anything. If your stepson decides upon active duty and doesn't plan on getting into a relationship anytime soon, there is likely no other time in his life where it will be easy to sock away income besides whatever he'll put into his Thrift Savings Plan. However, the same things that make it easy also make it easy to ignore altogether -- seeing the biggest numbers on his paycheck than he's ever seen before, not having to worry about paying for rent, food (especially if he gets put on separate rations) and healthcare, cheap life insurance and a GI Bill -- there are a lot of people I knew who wished they hadn't bought a bunch of electronics at the PX, ate out every meal, go drinking or playing video games every minute they weren't at work, live off-post, splurging on a car after deployments, etc. It is best to live and behave as if the government is not going to take care of you, because ultimately it won't, even in the military.

Also, he needs to practice driving more often whether he has his license already or not.

Best of luck tomorrow and God bless.

[UNK]

It sounds like he has a lack of motivation for some reason and the way he is currently acting if it continued would honestly make him a drain on any unit he is assigned to... Its not just about PT. Let him know that contrary to what the public believes, the .mil is not where lackluster youth go to figure themselves out. That time is past... If he does not perform then they will send him out the door with a quickness, most likely with a discharge type that doesnt look good on future applications elsewhere... If he wants to work and perform.... then welcome to the service, glad to have you. We are having trouble meeting recruiting goals...mostly due to the above mentioned issues.

Times must have changed. When I was in second phase we picked up a guy who had been on PI 6 months. And he got dropped when we went to third. I always figured he might still be there. 🙄

[jamautry]

Just wanted to report that he officially enlisted in the army today. He passed his DLAB and got the job he wanted, which is, 35W which is a new job combining the old Human Intelligence job and Linguist.

While a very small sample size he is back to being the motivated go getter he once was. He leaves in June and has 9 weeks of basic followed by a year of job training.

I am very optimistic he will perform well and has found the career for him.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

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[JRB]

Just wanted to report that he officially enlisted in the army today. He passed his DLAB and got the job he wanted, which is, 35W which is a new job combining the old Human Intelligence job and Linguist.

While a very small sample size he is back to being the motivated go getter he once was. He leaves in June and has 9 weeks of basic followed by a year of job training.

I am very optimistic he will perform well and has found the career for him.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

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I wish I started my career the way your son is starting his!

A final piece of advice, if I may: The Army seems very big, but it feels like a small town sometimes. So your son should do everything he can to make more friends than enemies - there's no telling who you'll run into 3 or 6 years later that's in a position to make your life much easier or much worse, depending on how you treated them in the past.

[jamautry]

I wish I started my career the way your son is starting his!

A final piece of advice, if I may: The Army seems very big, but it feels like a small town sometimes. So your son should do everything he can to make more friends than enemies - there's no telling who you'll run into 3 or 6 years later that's in a position to make your life much easier or much worse, depending on how you treated them in the past.

Great advice, I will let him know. Thanks again for your help, it was very beneficial.

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