AAR: Craig Douglas (Force on Force)

[Sauer Koch]

FOF is a great tool but good FOF is hard to find.

Craig, William Aprill, and Tom Givens run a joint course every January in Shawnee, OK. It's called Establishing a Dominance Paradigm (EDP).

The only other guy who's FOF I've seen and would recommend is Karl Rehn of KR Training. He's close to the Austin, TX area. Not saying that he's only source but the only one I can vouch for from personal experience.

Thanks, a few questions:
Is this a limited enrollment course?
what’s the typical turnout?
2-Days?

I remember seeing the flyer for this last year, but it just wasn’t on my radar enough, but now that I’ve got a taste of it, I definitely want more, and would really like for my wife to experience it as well.

[Sauer Koch]

Sauer Koch - Good AAR. I watch you run that evo.

As Craig told you, thank you for having the guts to put yourself out front so everyone else could learn as well.

And much respect on asking yourself the hard questions. That's a very good thing to do - asking yourself who you would kill for, and who you would die for. I would think that for most people who are not a sworn LEO or military, it should be a short and somewhat inclusive list.

It's so much better to have a deliberate conversation now, while you can reflect. A "hurried chat" with yourself when there is work to be done (or not done) rarely ends well for anyone.

Tom - thank you for the heads up, I'll see you in Nashville next year.

Thanks! I agree with the points you made for sure, especially the part about ‘the short list’...it’s interesting how a ‘fake’ drill can make you think about something on such a deep level, which speaks volumes about the quality of the course!

Assuming I’ll be off that weekend, this course will be at the top of my to do list!

[Cecil Burch]

Cecil - these classes are at your home range in Phoenix, right?

I'll start looking at tickets on Southwest this fall.

So far. We have had a couple inquiries about doing it on the road, but nothing concrete as of yet.

[Sauer Koch]

What is the typical cost of this course, when held in Shawnee?

[Tom Givens]

Was in Shawnee the past 4 years. In 2020 will be in Nashville. Three long days, 8am to 7pm, all three days. Cost will be about $700. Class size is limited to 16.

William Aprill does classroom work, I run the live fire training on the range, Craig does his scenario magic.

I'll post a link in a day or two.

[SouthNarc]

After my debrief with Craig, I asked (as did several others) "how can I do more of this with you"...thinking he had a class devoted just to this stuff, but oddly he doesn't. He mentioned a class with William Aprill, and someone else, that they all run together, but it's not listed on his site, and really didn't go out of his way to give more info on it than that, which was odd.

Hey buddy I'm glad you had fun in the Experiential Learning Lab and I certainly enjoy doing them.

I have four staple open enrollment courses. The youngest, VCAST is ten years old and the oldest ECQC is 17 years old.

These four open enrollment courses and the closed coursework that I do for various .gov entities keeps me on the road about 40 weeks out of the year. I flew 140,000 air miles last year.

I do scenario training for Tac Con and as part of the joint course that Tom, William, and I do together.

With my current work load it's difficult for me to develop a new stand alone course and I will not open something up to the public for consumption until it's at least 85% of where I think it needs to be. It took about three years of work to get my latest class, VCAST to where I thought it was about 85% ready to be presented to the public and that was using my old SWAT team as beta testers for drills and time hacks. I'm busier now than when I was a police officer.

Also a stand alone course where dedicated role players are present throughout two days of learning is going to be expensive. I'm spit-balling here but I'd venture to say right around $1000 after paying myself, paying the facility, paying role players and taking care of all their expenses. That's high and I'm not sure the market will bear that.

So it's not that I'm ambivalent about the importance of this kind of training....quite the opposite. It's just a significant endeavor that I haven't had the time or headspace to commit to yet.

[Sauer Koch]

Craig,

In hindsight, after reading the comments made by John Murphy, Tom, and John Hearne, and now yours, I understand the dynamics of such a class a little better, and can understand the scarcity of them. Thanks for the lengthy explanation, much appreciated.

To say I enjoyed your class would be a huge understatement, and my work schedule permitting, I hope to see you guys in Nashville in January!

[SouthNarc]

Craig,

In hindsight, after reading the comments made by John Murphy, Tom, and John Hearne, and now yours, I understand the dynamics of such a class a little better, and can understand the scarcity of them. Thanks for the lengthy explanation, much appreciated.

To say I enjoyed your class would be a huge understatement, and my work schedule permitting, I hope to see you guys in Nashville in January!

Sure thing sir, look forward to having you back!

[Tom Givens]

Givens/Southnarc/Aprill EDP Course, January, 2020, Nashville, TN

For all the details, see

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/establi...ts-59409502421

[GuanoLoco]

Givens/Southnarc/Aprill EDP Course, January, 2020, Nashville, TN

For all the details, see

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/establi...ts-59409502421

Ticketed!

That's a dicey time of year for me with early January Business Kickoff Meetings, but I don't want to miss it.