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Thread: AAR: Craig Douglas (Force on Force)

  1. #1
    Member Sauer Koch's Avatar
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    AAR: Craig Douglas (Force on Force)

    Last weekend I attended TacCon, and got picked to be one of the lucky 14 to go through a 4-hour simunitions force on force class ran by Craig Douglas & Chris Fry, with Chuck Haggard and Tiffany Johnson assisting as role players for the scenario.
    I trained with Tony Blauer several times in the past, and own a High Gear suit, and have done scenario work before, but this was so much more intense. They did an amazing job at setting up the scenario, and the role players did there job well, especially Chris Fry; he was a SERIOUSLY good 'bad guy', very impressive! The scenario was simply a gunman entering a 7-Eleven, wanting to rob the store, and leave. He fired a warning shot into the floor on his initial entry, to get our attention, and then screamed "get the fuck down, and stay down" etc...if everyone complied, he was not supposed to shoot anyone, but if they resisted, he was allowed to shoot them. *the scenario was constant for all 14 of us*

    Two of the women did not shoot, and I think two of the men did not. I did shoot, for better or worse. Even though I knew it was fake, it was amazing how intense it was mentally, and how the tunnel vision kicked in and made me focus on the BG, but I WAS able to see the bystanders near him. When he looked at me and said "get down' I hesitated, no idea why, but decided to comply, going to one knee; my gun was AIWB, so if I was face down, getting the gun out would require more movement, so I went to one knee. By the time my knee hit the ground, he turned to the girl in line at the counter, and began yelling at her to get down, and she did not, so he shot her. All this time I had my eyes on him waiting to see what he would do, and considering that he just executed her, my inner cowboy kicked in, and I slowly drew my gun from kneeling, and began to fire at him. I hit him a time or two, and although he shot at me, he missed, and eventually 'fell over' due to my hits, and it was over. WHAT A RUSH!!
    Afterwards, each person stood there in front of the spectators, (15-20) and he interviewed us, asking "what happened", "what we thought we did well", along with "what could you have done better"...and to share any thoughts we had.
    It was somewhat difficult to quickly remember exactly what happened, especially for those who shot back. So, we had on one end of the spectrum, the [I]good guy[I] simply complying, and not getting shot, to me, deciding to shoot the bad guy, after he executed one of the role players who didn't comply, to a guy who drew his gun without any sense of covertness, and ended up with a shit show, meaning lots of bullets flying, with both good & bad guy getting hit several times.

    I did three shooting courses over the three days, one with @WayneDobbs, which was excellent, one with John Murphy, and was able to slide into Gabe White's class at the last second, which was cool, since I just trained with him 6 weeks prior. Craig's class was the highlight for me though, since it was something I'd never done before, and combined my shooting skills into something more realistic.
    This was the most eye-opening gun training I've ever done, in that it combined everything into one package, and offered a glimpse into how a real life situation might go down, and how you'd react. It really makes you think about what you thought you'd do, and whether or not that is appropriate. Craig, for the most part, did not criticize what anyone did, but tried to get the person to think about what they did, and encouraged them to think about other possible ways it could have been handled, including NOTHING, saying there is really no right or wrong, that's left up to you to decide. He did say that typically speaking, he would try to not get involved, unless it was absolutely necessary..."not my circus, not my monkey"...again, the most important thing that this class did for me, was make me think!
    I think this kind of training is a must for anyone who carries a gun, but hell, most people who carry can't find the time to shoot 50 rounds a month on a paper target, much less, sign up for a full day of live fire training, or a force on force, but the introspection that comes from this is invaluable, IMHO.

    My wife decided during her CC course that her mission in a mass shooting event, was to not get involved unless the danger was absolutely directed her way, and her NOT shooting would mean her being injured, shot and/or killed. Her knowing my personality, after 23 yrs of marriage, led her to believe that I'd be the guy who took it upon himself to 'get involved' and inject myself into a nearby situation, just because I was armed, and a good guy who'd want to step up and do the 'right thing'.

    Shortly after my scenario was over, I thought of her, and how she'd be mad at me for how I reacted, even though I didn't get shot, but obviously not surprised. When the legal issues are considered, I've really stepped back and have changed my thought process as to what I'd do, if that exact thing really happened. It's a complicated subject, but one that everyone needs to think about, and I see no better way to kick start that process, than this kind of training.

    After my debrief with Craig, I asked (as did several others) "how can I do more of this with you"...thinking he had a class devoted just to this stuff, but oddly he doesn't. He mentioned a class with William Aprill, and someone else, that they all run together, but it's not listed on his site, and really didn't go out of his way to give more info on it than that, which was odd. I think it's part of his ECQC class, but I'm not sure how in depth it gets?

    I've been reading this forum for a few years now, and I'm surprised at how little you hear about this kind of training. Done poorly, I know it's probably a waste of time, since the role players, and time spent on crafting the scenario are crucial to it being a realistic experience. My question is...who are the go-to people for this, Douglas aside, that do this on a weekly basis?

    Closing thoughts....Force on Force should be considered a priority...Gabe White is such a great instructor, you MUST train with him, if you haven't already...I was very impressed with Wayne Dobbs, and would definitely like to train with him again...I sat in on Dagga Boys' 'Mission Drives the Gear Train' lecture, which was excellent, and would like to train with him as well.

  2. #2
    Craig is always worth more than the price of admission.

    Quality FOF programs are few and far between. The role players make or break the program.

  3. #3
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    FOF is a great tool but good FOF is hard to find.

    Craig, William Aprill, and Tom Givens run a joint course every January in Shawnee, OK. It's called Establishing a Dominance Paradigm (EDP).

    The only other guy who's FOF I've seen and would recommend is Karl Rehn of KR Training. He's close to the Austin, TX area. Not saying that he's only source but the only one I can vouch for from personal experience.
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  4. #4
    Member Sauer Koch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Murphy View Post
    Quality FOF programs are few and far between.
    The obvious question is, why??

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauer Koch View Post
    The obvious question is, why??
    Because it's a lot of hard work and it doesn't sell as well as a high round shoot 'em up class.

    The course that Southnarc, Aprill and I conduct together has had the same role players for 5 years now, and they are finely tuned. The 2020 version will be in a very modern indoor complex in Nashville, TN, next January, but enrollment is not open yet.

  6. #6
    Member Sauer Koch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    Because it's a lot of hard work and it doesn't sell as well as a high round shoot 'em up class.

    The course that Southnarc, Aprill and I conduct together has had the same role players for 5 years now, and they are finely tuned. The 2020 version will be in a very modern indoor complex in Nashville, TN, next January, but enrollment is not open yet.
    Understood, and the consistency & hard work shows, well done!! I’d love to attend that session in Nashville, I’m sure it’ll be amazing, what is the name of this course?

    Thanks Tom!
    Last edited by Sauer Koch; 03-24-2019 at 09:50 PM.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    Sauer Koch - Good AAR. I watch you run that evo.

    As Craig told you, thank you for having the guts to put yourself out front so everyone else could learn as well.

    And much respect on asking yourself the hard questions. That's a very good thing to do - asking yourself who you would kill for, and who you would die for. I would think that for most people who are not a sworn LEO or military, it should be a short and somewhat inclusive list.

    It's so much better to have a deliberate conversation now, while you can reflect. A "hurried chat" with yourself when there is work to be done (or not done) rarely ends well for anyone.

    Tom - thank you for the heads up, I'll see you in Nashville next year.

  8. #8
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    Because it's a lot of hard work and it doesn't sell as well as a high round shoot 'em up class.

    The course that Southnarc, Aprill and I conduct together has had the same role players for 5 years now, and they are finely tuned. The 2020 version will be in a very modern indoor complex in Nashville, TN, next January, but enrollment is not open yet.
    I’m a 3 hour drive away and quite interested.
    Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Givens View Post
    Because it's a lot of hard work and it doesn't sell as well as a high round shoot 'em up class.

    What Tom said.

    I do a course called Close Contact Handgun. It is what tons of people have said is needed - a class designed to get you plenty of time to work on skills to NOT have to need a gun, and if you do need to go to a weapon, the material is designed to teach you how to keep it from getting into a physical altercation. There is little to no contact, so literally anyone in any physical condition can do the class, and it's only 4 hours on a Friday and about 10 hours on Saturday so you don't even have to commit that much time. It goes over skills you can use almost every single day - i.e. Craig Douglas' MUC concepts are the backbone (taught under his express permission). Not one person who has been through the class has given it less than stellar reviews (the most common comment is "this is the class that every CCW class should be). Moreover, I do it in conjunction with another instructor, Glen Stilson of Independence Training, who does this full time and always fills his regular firearms classes (often 20+ students) so we have a huge market to draw from. I think we charge about $300 so it is not expensive. Glen and I have put a ton of time into making this as useful as possible, and after every class, he and I and the regular role players we use all sit around and hot wash to see what we could have done better. We have spent a ton of money and purchased a number of UTM guns and of different makes to try to get people using a gun as close to theirs as possible. We have worked with our role players, all super experienced in this type of coursework in their own right, and have them doing the best things to help students actually get better.

    All of that, and the result? We strain to get double digit students. No matter how often people say they should do this, the reality is that they do not put their time or wallet where their mouth is.
    For info about training or to contact me:
    Immediate Action Combatives

  10. #10
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    Cecil - these classes are at your home range in Phoenix, right?

    I'll start looking at tickets on Southwest this fall.

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