View Poll Results: Pistol Purchase Advice Poll

Voters
73. You may not vote on this poll
  • Sig P250sc

    0 0%
  • P229

    4 5.48%
  • P220 no rail

    0 0%
  • Beretta Px4 cc

    20 27.40%
  • HK 2000 c LEM

    10 13.70%
  • HK P2000 c V3

    7 9.59%
  • Walther P99AS

    3 4.11%
  • Other

    29 39.73%
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Thread: Pistol Purchase Advice per pangloss

  1. #21
    Member Aisin Gioro's Avatar
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    Post

    Since we are happily ignoring pangloss's intent here and chirping in with explanations, here are my thoughts:

    1-Sig P250sc
    Great idea, poorly executed. They feel great in the hand, the trigger is a DA dream, and modularity is a great thing...but it's D/Ced, SIG never really got the finished product where it needed to be in terms of reliability or features (eg, the rear sight), and it is singular enough that there will be essentially no aftermarket support for it, especially since SIG themselves won't even support it. So close, yet so far...

    2-Sig P229
    Classic and still very valid. Heavy and biggish for what it is, and I find it to be surprisingly thick as a carry gun, but I've had a bunch of them over the years and they have all run great. Heaps and heaps of aftermarket support in every way, plus SIG still supports them. Though SIG is certainly an imperfect friend these days for QC, their support department seems quite solid (maybe because they get so much practice?). Remember too that the controls are backwards from most everything else, which is something to consider if you train to be very thorough in decocking every time you come off the sights, and then move back and forth between gun designs. Interestingly, if you use Ernest Langdon's technique of sweeping back to decock with the left thumb, a la Beretta 92, I find that it works equally well for both and the training carries over smoothly. A good choice if it works well for you.

    3-Sig P220
    On paper it looks great for a full size .45, but in practice it can be a let-down. As noted, the agencies that have used them often reported very mixed results. Dimensionally similar to a 1911, so it's nice and slim to carry despite being big. I have found them to be fussy about magazines, like a not-so-great 1911. Same as above for the control locations.

    4-Beretta Px4cc
    It's an innovative design that works pretty well, but can be somewhat unforgiving. If you are really thorough about your maintenance, they are usually very reliable. If not, there are known issues. My hand does not fit the control levers well, so I find them to be awkward and difficult to manipulate quickly and smoothly. On the plus side, the action is very smooth, they feel great in the hand, and the DA trigger pull can be quite nice. They also feel much smaller than they look.

    5-HK 2000 LEM
    There are a lot of reasons why some Very Smart People like the LEM. I am not a VSP, but I like it a lot, too. It makes tremendous sense on a carry gun, even though it's not as much fun to shoot at the range. Personally, I think the P2000 is an under-rated (but maybe over-priced) design. I'm a big USP compact fan, and the P2000 is essentially a slightly improved version of that, being a bit more streamlined for carry, with a semi-configurable grip, real accessory rail, etc. Like pretty much anything made by HK, they are ridiculously durable and reliable.

    6-HK 2000 V3
    If you like DA/SA, everything said after the LEM part applies here. Personally, I am not particularly fond of HK's rear button decocker, as I find it less intuitive than SIG or Beretta designs. The exception is the P30 series, where I sweep the safety up and then swing around to the decocker in one motion. Otherwise, absent a manual safety, I would prefer to stick with the "Langdon left hand sweep", which isn't as natural or smooth with the rear button.

    7-Walther P99AS
    We're gonna party like it's 1999! It's OK, but there is really nothing to recommend it over other designs. I also don't like the idea of an 8mm trigger travel combined with a 4.5lb trigger as an initial trigger, so if I had to carry one, I would get very, very consistent about using the decock button every time I came off the sights. Limited aftermarket support, but the build quality seems good.

    8-Other, including discontinued
    Beretta 92 Compact.
    Yes, it's not very compact, but with Mec-Gar coming out with 15 round magazines, it's very comparable to the SIG P229, except with a great Beretta DA trigger, longer sight radius, and (if you want it) the option for a manual safety. Rail or no rail, you can have it either way. For some reason, the 92 Compacts from the Italian-made 2015 batch seem to have especially good triggers, even by Beretta standards. Similarly, from the discontinued list, a 92D Centurion is a great old school DAO carry gun. Langdon thin grips make either one feel much smaller and more lithe in the hand. Disclaimer: I'm very much a DAO fanboy.

    HK45 Compact. If you are looking for a .45, this is a very viable option. You can get it in DA/SA or LEM, it's durable, reliable, and most people make gear and accessories for it (lights being a glaring exception, no pun intended). It weighs less than a P220, but shoots softer in my experience.
    Last edited by Aisin Gioro; 03-22-2019 at 05:22 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ View Post
    Not to beat a dead horse, and with respect, but imho that statement is a canard.

    Case in point: I attempted to shoot a VP9 virtually exclusively for 2+ years.

    A forum buddy of mine leant me his new Gen 5 Glock 19 and within 25 rounds I was ringing an 8” steel plate at 25 yards.

    It’s just not that big a deal.

    Try another gun if you like, there are lots of good suggestions in the thread. But if you are steering away from a Glock solely from the ‘Grip Angle’, frankly it would be...unwise.

    All of us on the forum wish you well. Best of luck with whatever you buy, and I will read your future experiences with interest.
    I did try a partial course of IDPA with a friends G17 about 4 yrs ago; my shots were all high. Glock shooters have told me about the transition, and that they have difficulties going back to their 1911 grip style guns. I do have time invested in shooting non glocks; besides the grip angle, I prefer a TDA to a striker. Thank you for your support.

  3. #23
    Aisin Gioro

    Thank you for sharing. Very nice job!

  4. #24
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
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    USP C 9mm. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, figure out which LEM version or hybrid you can shoot well with and roll on. Uses the same mags as a P30/VP9 with grip adaptors if you want more capacity.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  5. #25
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Central FL
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    USP C 9mm. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, figure out which LEM version or hybrid you can shoot well with and roll on. Uses the same mags as a P30/VP9 with grip adaptors if you want more capacity.
    Good pick.

    I could make a case that if they had made a VP9c, I’d still be shooting HKs.

  6. #26
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    it really doesn't matter. Just pick one.

  7. #27
    Member olstyn's Avatar
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    Sep 2014
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    Minnesota
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    7. Walther P99AS - I got nuthin'. Except to say I try to avoid "snowflake" pistols - because I seem to use my guns HARD, and frequently find myself needing service.
    I carry a P99c and compete with a P99, so I'll weigh in here.

    It absolutely is a "snowflake" pistol, but it's a very good one. The DA trigger is smooth, the SA is like shooting a PPQ but a touch lighter, which is to say it's very good, the ergonomics are good, accuracy is on par with any other modern service pistol, and it's very reliable. I've got just north of 8K rounds through my full size, and the only real malfunctions on record were traced to my own dumbassery - apparently I managed to accidentally dump too much lube into it once, such that some got into the striker channel and got some carbon into it, with predictable results (light strikes). Best guess is that the excess lube went either through the small gap around the bottom of the decocker button or between the slide cover plate and the main body of the slide or both. Pull out striker, shoot some aerosol cleaner (Hornady One Shot) through the striker channel, insert Q-tip, twist, pull out gunked up Q-tip, repeat until Q-tip comes out clean, problem solved. For completeness' sake, I also had two rounds that were undercharged/near squibs which didn't fully cycle the slide, but they were a lot closer to "pop" than "bang," so I'm 100% confident that they were not the gun's fault.

    You'll either love or hate the paddle mag release; there's really not much in between on that one. I personally think paddles are great, and wish more guns came that way, but I freely admit they're not for everybody. Aftermarket support is less than you'll find for Glock or SIG, but at bare minimum, Custom Carry Concepts makes good holsters and mag carriers for it, as do several less well known holster makers. Unfortunately, JMCK dropped support for it a while ago, though IIRC @GJM said something once about the P99c fitting in PPQ holsters from JMCK, which would mean it's pretty likely that the full size would fit in a PPQ holster as well. I wouldn't assume it without testing, but I also wouldn't bet against it. Dawson, Trijicon, and Meprolight all make sights, so you should be able to find something acceptable there.

    Needing service from Walther is not a problem. I have managed to break some parts on my P99c, which I've had much longer than my full size, and when I've called, at least in the post-Ft. Smith era when they started offering a lifetime warranty, Walther has replaced broken parts at no cost to me, and they've been in my mailbox as quickly as USPS can get them there. They even sent me a safety plunger for free once even though I admitted up front that I managed to launch it across my garage when I disassembled the slide for a deep cleaning. I expected to have to pay for it, but they gave it to me for free, which I viewed as really good/generous customer service. The one caveat is that they do a WAY better job when you call on the phone than when you email. It's also good to look up a parts diagram so that you know the exact part number you need to ask for, but I view that as basic preparedness on the part of the customer.

    The P99 happens to be a gun that I feel is very well made and a very good fit for me, but I'm not about to cast any shade on the entirely reasonable choices most people make to go in other directions, because to be brutally honest, it's not magically better than most of the other very good options out there. Realistically, almost any of the pistols from any of the many reputable makers out there will serve most people very well; it truly does come down to personal preference/fit if you're looking for anything more than "pistol, polymer frame, generic," for which the clear answer has been and likely will remain "buy a G19."

  8. #28
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
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    Midwest
    What P220s were having all the issues with LE agencies? I know the internal extractor/stainless were having issues but have never heard of the short external extractor having problems. Our conservation officers didn't seem to have any issue. I don't think I've personally went over 20k with one, but I've never had an issue with the short extractor P220s.

    I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everyone, or even the OP, but I've been quite fond of mine.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Mar 2015
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    "carbine-infested rural (and suburban) areas"
    Several years ago, Bruce Gray introduced an upgraded extractor for short external guns. It seems to have disappeared from his site, so there must not be that much demand.

    I'd be interested in a drop-in fix for P229 9mm long external issues.

    -----------------

    To the OP, since your EDC is a P250, you should definitely pick up a P250C in .22LR. I just drilled through 120 rounds with mine for less than $5 in ammo cost. That's a lot of live fire trigger presses per buck, and those trigger presses are literally identical to your EDC. Shooting so cheap it's nearly free and limiting wear and tear on your hands and other joints is fun. And 60 rounds in a B8 center still leaves the center usable for aiming when the holes are that small, so no time wasted putting up new targets. GunMagWarehouse has the mags for the best price.
    Last edited by OlongJohnson; 03-22-2019 at 09:59 PM.
    .
    -----------------------------------------
    Not another dime.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    What P220s were having all the issues with LE agencies? I know the internal extractor/stainless were having issues but have never heard of the short external extractor having problems. Our conservation officers didn't seem to have any issue. I don't think I've personally went over 20k with one, but I've never had an issue with the short extractor P220s.

    I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everyone, or even the OP, but I've been quite fond of mine.
    The all stainless guns had issues with both types of extractor. More with the internal extractor though.

    The standard P220s ran well but proved a bit less durable than other P series guns, at least for those shooting high round counts. There were also some issues with the early 8 round magazines.
    Last edited by HCM; 03-22-2019 at 11:08 PM.

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