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Thread: I guess I'll poke the bear: Hodge

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay585 View Post
    Ya'll need to go to Primary and Secondary and read the Hodge thread. Jim Hodge posts in it (or he used to, anyway). Lots of end user input (of which I am not. I am parroting what I've heard/read).

    Seriously - if you're asking a legit question and not making a bash thread, go to the source.
    I've read it. Jim Hodge hasn't replied to that thread in like 4 years.

    No one is bashing Hodge.

  2. #22
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay585 View Post
    Ya'll need to go to Primary and Secondary and read the Hodge thread. Jim Hodge posts in it (or he used to, anyway). Lots of end user input (of which I am not. I am parroting what I've heard/read).

    Seriously - if you're asking a legit question and not making a bash thread, go to the source.
    That is one of the threads I refer to in my OP.
    Food Court Apprentice
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  3. #23
    Site Supporter Jay585's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    That is one of the threads I refer to in my OP.
    I didn't see your post on that thread asking this question. Those dudes can probably answer your question.
    "Well you know, it's a toolbox. You put the tools in for the job." Sam

  4. #24
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    Advantages of Hodge:


    -Barrels have the longest life span I am aware of. 20K rounds of M855A1 is what they are tested to, roughly, IIRC.
    -Gas ports...runs with or without a can, no need for added moving parts like adj. blocks, etc.
    -Rails...those rails are some of the most rigid and durable in the business.
    -Materials...The MOD 2 is, and always will be, made of an alloy superior to 7075, and the barrels on the MOD 2's and I believe now the MOD 1.5/1's are of superior alloy to 4150, hence their life-span before accuracy degrades, in part.
    -Assembly...tolerances are much tighter on the Hodge guns than any other I've seen or handled. Notice I did not say CLEARANCES. There is a difference. The Hodge is a very precise fighting gun, not a very tight race-gun.
    -BCG...I am unaware of any Hodge BCG's that have failed, even given above round counts of M855A1.

    Disadvantages:

    Cost/availability
    Last edited by Unobtanium; 03-21-2019 at 08:03 AM.

  5. #25
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    Here is a recent interview with the man himself:

    http://www.arbuildjunkie.com/hodge-d...m4Ulh7uXG9yStU

    I have a Mod 1 and I like it. Is it “necessary?” No, probably not. Is it a great rifle ? Yes. It is reliable with or without a can, accurate, and the smoothest shooting AR I have ever shot. And yes I have a BCM midlength and have shot KACs. I also find the wedgelock rail the most ergonomic for my style of shooting.

    KACs are awesome guns, but they are made in Florida. Hodge guns are made in TX. TX is kind of like a mirror of Islam in that TX it is both a state and a belief system. As a TX convert I had to go with the TX gun.

    Since I am not cutting the handle off my toothbrush to save weight on mountain treks in Afghanistan, the Mod materials are not of great benefit to me but they are to some people. For me the Hodge rifle is an “Ufberht.” A best quality working tool offering superior performance and pride of ownership.

    The prior comparison in this thread to a Heirloom Precision 1911 is inaccuarate. While better fitted and assembled than most, a Hodge rifle does not have the level of hand work. So what buy a Hodge when a BCM, SOLGW, or SIONICs is good enough ? The same reason folks buy Wilson, Nighthawk and Gun Crafters 1911s when a Dan Wesson is good enough.
    Last edited by HCM; 03-31-2019 at 03:25 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 36trap View Post
    If your goal is to buy a premium carbine, I don't understand why the choice would be anything other than a KAC rifle. Regardless, the cool kids say Hodge is the best so that combined with exclusivity drives the hype. What I found interesting about the Hodge stuff was how nobody would come right out and say this, this, and that are why it's the best. It was always presented as trust me it's the best or if you know, you know. It may very well be the best thing know to mankind, who knows?
    Couldn’t resist.

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  7. #27
    Site Supporter Bigghoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Couldn’t resist.

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    It gets better.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BvsdJVuB9Sh/
    Quote Originally Posted by MattyD380 View Post
    Because buying cool, interesting guns I don't need isn't a decision... it's a lifestyle...

  8. #28
    I just browsed Hodge's site and couldn't readily figure out how well their ambi controls look. I surfed other site and saw that this is nearly $1k more than a KAC? No thanks.
    #RESIST

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleLebowski View Post
    I just browsed Hodge's site and couldn't readily figure out how well their ambi controls look. I surfed other site and saw that this is nearly $1k more than a KAC? No thanks.
    Hodge Mod 1 complete rifles are retailing for $2200-$2400 - Splitting the difference, If you have a source for KAC rifles at $1300 I’ll take one. The only local dealer who stocks KAC gets $2600 for KAC AR’s and $1700 for complete uppers.
    Last edited by HCM; 04-01-2019 at 09:45 AM.

  10. #30
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    I’m reposting a great post re: Hodge from ARFCOM from someone who is a true SME in military rifle specification, selection and acquisition:

    https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Ho...f1suyFoGb2u2GA

    Sigh*

    Part 1

    Despite the immediate reaction to illogical banter, which drives us SMEs off of this site, I do truly enjoy helping people become better and know more. That is the only reason I'm going to respond to all this (one last time) - I'm going to remain reserved and give the benefit of the doubt to naysayers that they are genuinely curious and can stifle their confirmation bias for the time being. If you are incapable of setting aside a pre-determined thesis based upon only what you have (disregarding you may not have everything), stop reading now. You cannot be helped.

    We are in the information age. Never before has an individual been able to access so much information or cross reference material at the speed or volume we can now. I believe it's natural to want to know more, especially in a saturated industry. Think about it, gun shops are going out of business as people realize they can save money and time by cutting out the middle men. It's natural to want to seek and cut out suppliers and intermediaries, or information in general so people know what they are really paying for. We all do it.

    There are two sides to this. A producer always wants to retain as much IP and a unique edge over competition as possible - sometimes this can just be an edge in the marketing domain, others it can truly be technical in nature. Many times this includes a producer not wanting product information to be taken out of context and used in such a way to degrade their brand. Use gas ports as an example. To us it is a hole in a steel tube that gets us in the general vicinity. To a company, it reflects the aggregate product, and their spec may result in CS complaints if used in a different configuration than what is intended. Gas port sizes +/- a thousanth or two doesn't really mean anything by itself. +/- 4 to 10 thou may mean everything to you and I.

    The other side is the consumer wanting to know everything they can know about a product. The consumer accepts a balance of this when they purchase something, and do not accept it when they decline to purchase. It's that simple - only you can determine what amount of information is acceptable. I absolutely reach out to contacts and agencies that I'm familiar with to get information to guide my purchases. Some may not be accessible by everyone, and for those of us that use whatever resources we are able to, we aren't always able to or comfortable with sharing some information. We share what we can to help others. There's nothing wrong with a gentleman's agreement.

    Now, this means that others may not be privy to certain documents or data points (anecdotal or otherwise). Said documents or data points may not be able to be furnished for various reasons. This does not mean they don't exist. Confirmation bias may tell you otherwise. What I suggest to those folks is to reach out to shops in question, in this case, the public number to Hodge Defense - I'll give you a guess as to who is going to pick up the phone (hint, it's not a large CS shop taking calls). I encourage everyone to gather what information can be had, and to identify the common denominators to inform their decisions or opinions. It is easy to reach out and seek information for yourself. If you wish to go so far as to FOIA an agency, I can help guide you. Not doing so is lazy behavior at best, and being deliberately disingenuous at worst because you have a pre-determined message. This is what I call, to those applicable, a you problem.

    So, I'll now do my best to educate those willing to listen and be civil. I'm not going to sell anyone on anything - that's not my job, and I get no personal gain from what anyone here does after the fact.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let's talk barrels first.

    I am not sure how accuracy reports within this thread are a flat out lie. I won't speak for anyone else here, but my gun delivers 1.3 MOA performance. That 1.3 MOA is for three 10-shot groups for a 30-shot composite. That is firing from a Magpul M3 PMag, with Black Hills Mk262 Mod 1 with the last three digits of the lot being 002 (velocity of 2590)(it does it with any of their lots). It's fired off a Harris bipod, an Accuracy 1st DG sand sock, and a Nightforce 1-8 ATACR dialed up 2 MIL and holding on the 2 MIL line. That statistically is something like 97+% confidence. That's real life performance - if one wants to contest this claim, PM me and I will invite you shooting. I have no problem with this. I will even let you take my gun for a spin and draw your own conclusions about it.

    I could post a picture of a similar group later on with a digital caliper going edge to edge around the ES of the group. In fact, I may go to the range and fire ten 10-shot groups overlaid so people can get a real indication of the gun plus ammunition consistency. Maximum ES for Mk262 if I remember correctly was 4.5" at 300 yards, meaning a 1.5 MOA standard for 100 shots out of a Mann test barrel. I would bet money my gun doesn't exceed 2.5 MOA for those 100 shots, and probably wouldn't exceed 2 MOA.

    Nobody is claiming these guns are the most accurate, that they cannot be more accurate, or they are benchrest guns (contextually irrelevant, so let's just let that die). Any gun with a 5.56 chamber is going to be hard pressed to be a true sub minute gun for any significant number of rounds. Most shooters on this site do not own true sub minute ARs. There is such thing as good enough for most purposes.

    What HDSI owners are saying is that they are giving that level of performance at higher round counts than other barrels of similar configurations. I can take an excellent DD barrel and it is almost guaranteed to shoot, but if I heat it up too much my groups will open up some and I will see more zero shift if I hang a suppressor off of it. I can do well with an excellent FN-produced Centurion for 25K rounds, but I can't get the gas port as small as I want from the get go (more on this later). I've seen the HDSI barrels in full on HDSI guns and FN Pro Line Guns shooting damn near the same groups at 9K rounds fired as they were in the beginning. Bore scoping doesn't matter as much as some think it does. I've seen heinous looking, fire cracked barrels shooting well. Why? They had good bore dimensions, a well designed chamber with no runout, and more. These HSDIs have taper bores just like DDs and HKs which contribute to their velocity retention (critical to prevent a bullet falling out of a velocity and harmonic node. Wikipedia barrel harmonics for more information).

    If I want a laser barrel, I'm calling CLE and ordering a 16" intermediate Bartlein, 1:8 twist, CLE chamber, 0.078" gas port, BAT Machine extension, and a bolt headspaced with a few thousanths to spare. That barrel cannot get me to 35K rounds with less than 200 FPS velocity loss. You can easily build a more precise system, but you will pay a cost in another domain. There is no free lunch.

    So how do I rate barrels? Depends on the use. For a hard use assault rifle I use metrics of precision, accuracy, velocity retention, porting, and availability. HDSI barrels give me the best blend of what I want there - a sub 2 MOA barrel that doesn't behave adversely with suppressor mounting or usage (a stable 1 MOA shift hot or cold, not entirely counting suppressor fouling), retains velocity to the end of it's life, doesn't result in overgassing, and I can find it. If I can't find it? I go with a different barrel! DD or Centurion answers the mail here.

    Someone noted the contour is similar to a BA profile. That person is correct. The Hodge barrel contour isn't so unique that it can't be replicated. It is just an intelligent contour given the amount of material present. The problem is I can't really get everything I want in one barrel unless I get an HSDI/FN. If you don't need a 35K capable barrel, and your gas block to gas journal fit is loose, or your gas tube is out of spec, or you don't shoot full pressure 5.56 ammo all the time, etc., this barrel may not be for you. That is okay! It's just a barrel, not a first born child.

    Regarding thermal fitting, this is nothing new, and nothing BCM or Hodge created. The military shooting teams were thermal fitting match barrels to NSN receivers for years before either company existed. It is a valid concept that prevents wandering of zero when the gun heats way up with minimal torque specification. Who did it first I do not know (I believe it was Jim), but the concept of a reduced inner diameter within the carrier bore only for the barrel nut bearing surface was the new practice. That is a new dimension on a print, which means a separate receiver line for an OEM producer.

    Speaking of that, if you take an HSDI receiver (or several others on the market) and throw it in a CMM or even manually check for squareness and such, you'll find it is subject to tighter controls than your standard NSN upper that can be had for ~$60. You will not likely find an HSDI receiver with a receiver face that is not square. You will not likely find one that has takedown lug holes located incorrectly, and the lugs themselves will not be standard dimension. Even the anodizing is modified (regardless of 7075 or 2099), done via 'brightening' or known as electro polish anodizing. You can Wikipedia it for a really good description on how it all works. It is done by HK for their receivers and results in a very, very smooth gun. All of this took RDT&E, trial and error during a time where the rest of the industry just wanted to speed up and make more. This took money to add the finite features. It takes an OEM producer time and money to change tooling and programming on their machines for a low volume product line, and takes more time to make so specifications are held to the print. This all adds up in time and money - this is no secret in any industry.

    There is an upcharge for assembly of everything on planet Earth. It is not $1K for HDSI guns. If you have a telephone and a few minutes of time, you may not claim ignorance here when you can call and ask from the head of HDSI directly. You are paying for a bit of exclusivity, as Jim does want his brand to be a different kind of customer (his prerogative) and doesn't want to compromise QC for volume, or add an assembly plant to his house. The parts are NOT commodity parts. Pins from gun to gun are installed in the same orientation - it's maddening OCD, going into details that don't even matter to me at times! If you want to know the cost to manufacture the parts, call HDSI and ask. He may well tell you, or he may not. But you could ask if it takes more or less than $75 to produce his barrels. He'll likely laugh and say more.

    Triggers can vary on his guns, but even if he uses the ALG ACT trigger, he even goes in and lightly polishes contact surfaces of that. I provided a Larue MBT on mine with the heavy spring and he used it willingly. You have flexibility here.

    I got this gun because I was tired of hunting around for parts, stripping substandard parts off existing guns, or having other parts break (I've broken ALMOST every part on an AR. Got a few more to go to complete the list ).

    Could I build one equal? Possibly. If I couldn't find an HSDI receiver, I'd grab an excellent Gen 2 SOLGW receiver set. I'd grab a Radian Raptor CH, a Larue MBT2S, and a complete lower and upper parts kit from FCD. I'd use Magpul or B5 furniture. For a BCG I'd try to get a standard 9.6 oz QPQ carrier group but if this couldn't be had would settle for a SOLGW or equivalent carrier group. Stock H2 buffers are fine, and would use a Springco white spring. I'd call on SOLGW again for one of their gas tubes and pin it to an SLR .750" fixed gas block. I'd still use an HSDI barrel, and a SF muzzle device of whatever flavor. If I couldn't luck out to find a 7075 Wedgelock or 6061 Pinchlock rail, I'd use the FCD/CMT rail cut to 13.625" and a barrel nut torqued to 40 ft/lbs wet with grease. Magpul MBus Pro BUIS. I'd have an adult like D. Wilson MFG put it together and pin the gas block for me (give him a call and ask his opinions about HDSI gun assembly). So on and so forth with all levels of accouterments and gadgets.

    At the end of the day, would that be a baller gun? Absolutely it would! It would also cost me more by the time I had ordered everything, shipped it, had stuff assembled, had to buy HS gauges if I didn't send it out, etc. That's a lot of headache when I could just buy the gun to begin with. AND if something went wrong with it, who do I go to? Who is going to support that gun? If I somehow suffered a parts failure on my gun right this second, I could text Jim and he'd call FRANTIC wanting to know the location of every atom surrounding the part failure and want to put hands on it. I once asked him not too long ago, "Man, what would you do if I dinged this thing up and it broke?". He replied, "Well, I'd go back to the drawing board, because I should've made a better widget to begin with! And I should have tested it harder!"

    You DON'T get that with much of the industry these days. Too many are in love with their architecture or their own self image. You are also buying a seriously high level of support backed by a behemoth called FN. Some of the aforementioned companies above are like this as well.

    Now, do I completely agree with the 'If you get it" slogan? Yes on principle, no on context. I do feel he (Jim) could describe that publicly a little better. What he normally says is, paraphrased, "Once you shoot it, you get what value it has". I interpret it differently - I take it as once you see the gun up close, examine it, and use it, you realize it isn't anything that crazy special or super proprietary in many respects. It simply is done right from the get go, but given the state of the industry, its not hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys!

    An HDSI gun may not be for you. You may not be shooting the ammunition type the gun is tuned for, the quantities to actualize the benefits, or you may not be happy with availability. You might not be shooting fast enough, accurately enough, suppressed or unsuppressed. You may not even be happy about an inability to know what alloy the barrel is made from. All of this is okay. None of this means it isn't worth the price. They are extremely functional guns for the purposes of long term hard use.

    S/F
    Last edited by HCM; 05-14-2019 at 11:20 AM.

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