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Thread: AR15 question.

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigguy View Post
    Is there an automatic version of the AR15 used by police. (I'm reviewing a book that has police using "fully automatic AR15 submachine guns.") OK, I've got the "sub" machine gun, but I realize that I don't know if it is common for police to use a modified version.
    Appreciate any knowledgable info.
    Yes. There are factory 9mm SMG versions of the AR-15 and some mistakenly refer to carbine versions of the 5.56 AR family of weapons as “submachine guns.” However it would be unusual for police agencies to use semi auto guns modified to fully automatic. In fact, the reverse is true, it is common for U.S. police Agencies to converts surplus select fire guns to semi auto only.

    There are many police agencies which use select fire versions of the AR-15/M16/M4 family of Weapons. The compact 5.56 versions are technically carbines because they use a rifle round though they are sometimes mistakenly called submachine guns. Submachine Guns, by definition use pistol rounds. There is an 9mm submachine gun version of the AR, the Colt 635 which has been used by police agencies including the DEA and the U.S. Dept Of State Diplomatic Security Service.

    The original original Armalite AR-15s and the original “Colt Armalite AR-15”s were select fire, meaning they could fire either semi or full automatic. Colt introduced the semi auto only AR-15 in the 1960s after the U.S. Military adopted the select fire version as the M16 and later M16E1 /M16A1. In common use, AR-15 normally now denotes a semi auto weapon.
    Last edited by HCM; 03-18-2019 at 09:56 PM.

  2. #12
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Yes. There are factory 9mm SMG versions of the AR-15 and some mistakenly refer to carbine versions of the 5.56 AR family of weapons as “submachine guns.” However it would be unusual for police agencies to use semi auto guns modified to fully automatic. In fact, the reverse is true, it is common for U.S. police Agencies to converts surplus select fire guns to semi auto only.
    Yes, what HCM said. The 9mm AR pattern Colt sub-guns were once really common, though not MP5 common. DEA was one real good sized org that employed them.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    I'm afraid you don't. Sub-machine guns are chambered in pistol calibers. The AR-15 is not.
    That's what I meant. I know that they were not "sub." I wasn't sure about a select fire version used by police.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigguy View Post
    That's what I meant. I know that they were not "sub." I wasn't sure about a select fire version used by police.
    https://www.colt.com/detail-page/colt-9mm-smg

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    I think that pretty well answers my question. I'm glad I checked here before going off on the guy. And, I've learned couple of things.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    We're issued M4A1s (fully automatic) or Mk18s (fully automatic) for rifles. For subguns we used to have HK MP5KNs with 3-round burst trigger group (FA trigger groups were reserved for training purposes only - because reasons), but those have all been turned in because big Navy isn't supporting them anymore. Now we have some Colt 9mm SMGs that are FA, but those are MOSTLY used as training guns for ranges where we can't shoot rifle rounds. Theoretically, a Field Office SAC can authorize their operational use - but why would they? Our M4/Mk18s are individually assigned and zero'd, the Colts are "pool guns" with BZO. The 5.56 has better reach and barrier penetration, the Colt is basically a VERY large and heavy handgun that's loaded with our fairly anemic and 30+ year old 9mm JHP.
    Last edited by psalms144.1; 03-19-2019 at 07:57 AM.

  7. #17
    fully automatic AR15 submachine guns
    From a storytelling point of view, this statement is pedantic. It would be like saying "wet salty Atlantic sea water". It also violates the "Show. Don't Tell" rule. The writer could identify the rifle carried by the officer as an AR then show it being used in full auto mode with the officer firing it in bursts.

    To the original question, from what I understand with conversations with working police officers I personally know, full auto and burst fire weapons are rarely used and almost never by patrol officers because of liability issues. The rare times they are used, they are used sparingly by special teams like SWAT.

    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "MACHINEGUNS" AND "SUBMACHINEGUNS"
    In the early days of selfloading firearms, a "machinegun" was a full-automatic firearm that fed and loaded ammunition by the power of the firearm. That is, the round was positioned for feeding, fed, extracted and ejected all by a mechanism powered by the energy of the fired round. The most common example of this type of weapon is a full automatic belt fed. The rounds are pulled into position by the feed mechanism powered by the action of the weapon itself.

    "Submachineguns" use a secondary mechanism that operated independently from the cycling of the action to position the rounds for feeding. The action of firearm only feeds, extracts and ejects the round. The most common example of a submachinegun is one that uses a detachable box magazine. This definition has nothing to do with the type of ammo used.

    Because of common usage, most people believe "submachinegun" means "a full-automatic firearm utilizing a pistol cartridge".

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigguy View Post
    An MD520N Helicopter shot down my a .50 cal round to the belly, rupturing the fuel tank. In the book the copter loses power due to fuel starvation and craters in...
    Helicopter pilots train endlessly to go into autorotation in case of engine loss and trained to do it quickly. However, autorotations can be very tricky, especially for an inexperienced pilot. Done right and the helicopter sets down with no problems. If not, the end results can be anything from a hard landing to a smoking hole in the ground. Some helicopters have high rotor mass and autorotations are fairly easy. Some have low rotor mass and if the pilot hesitates even for a fraction of a second, they won't be able to keep rotor speed which is critical to a successful autorotation.

    In the scenario as described, a fifty caliber bullet would puncture the gas tank which could lead to a rapid loss of fuel. The pilot might have very little time from the time a low fuel condition is indicated and the engine flames out. Still, the pilot should have a chance to initiate an autorotation unless some other condition arises, such inexperience coupled with the pilot being distracted or damage to a flight control or the pilot being wounded or killed.

    Side Note: Helicopters are designed so if the engine experiences a sudden stoppage, the rotors will continue spinning freely.
    Last edited by MistWolf; 03-19-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    From a storytelling point of view, this statement is pedantic. It would be like saying "wet salty Atlantic sea water". It also violates the "Show. Don't Tell" rule. The writer could identify the rifle carried by the officer as an AR then show it being used in full auto mode with the officer firing it in bursts.

    To the original question, from what I understand with conversations with working police officers I personally know, full auto and burst fire weapons are rarely used and almost never by patrol officers because of liability issues. The rare times they are used, they are used sparingly by special teams like SWAT.

    THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "MACHINEGUNS" AND "SUBMACHINEGUNS"
    In the early days of selfloading firearms, a "machinegun" was a full-automatic firearm that fed and loaded ammunition by the power of the firearm. That is, the round was positioned for feeding, fed, extracted and ejected all by a mechanism powered by the energy of the fired round. The most common example of this type of weapon is a full automatic belt fed. The rounds are pulled into position by the feed mechanism by the weapon itself each time the action cycles.

    "Submachineguns" use a secondary mechanism that operated independently from the cycling of the action to position the rounds for feeding. The action of firearm only feeds, extracts and ejects the round. The most common example of a submachinegun is one that uses a detachable box magazine. This definition has nothing to do with the type of ammo used.

    Because of common usage, most people believe "submachinegun" means "a full-automatic firearm utilizing a pistol cartridge".


    Helicopter pilots train endlessly to go into autorotation in case of engine loss and trained to do it quickly. However, autorotations can be very tricky, especially for an inexperienced pilot. Done right and the helicopter sets down with no problems. If not, the end results can be anything from a hard landing to a smoking hole in the ground. Some helicopters have high rotor mass and autorotations are fairly easy. Some have low rotor mass and if the pilot hesitates even for a fraction of a second, they won't be able to keep rotor speed which is critical to a successful autorotation.

    In the scenario as described, a fifty caliber bullet would puncture the gas tank which could lead to a rapid loss of fuel. The pilot might have very little time from the time a low fuel condition is indicated and the engine flames out. Still, the pilot should have a chance to initiate an autorotation unless some other condition arises, such inexperience coupled with the pilot being distracted or damage to a flight control or the pilot being wounded or killed.

    Side Note: Helicopters are designed so if the engine experiences a sudden stoppage, the rotors will continue spinning freely.
    Thanks so much for your feedback. I've think you have eloquently expressed my problems with the book. As this is a professional review, I want to be fair and accurate. I think this guy has probably done lot of Internet research and memorized a lot of technical jargon without really understanding it. He's got the basis of a pretty good story, but he throws in a lot of unnecessary minutia.
    Pedantic. I'd heard the word but wasn't sure of its usage. I looked it up and it perfectly describes my feeling toward this book. I'll put a link to it on Amazon at the end of this post if anybody wants to check out the sample. I think you can get feel for my problems with it from that.
    Just be be clear, I'm not recommending it at this point. I'm 40% through and will hold final judgement until I finish it.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JJ14GR7

  9. #19
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    And aurorotation sucks only slightly less than the alternative... kind like chemo...

    https://www.abqjournal.com/news/brea...an08-16-05.htm

    30.06, IIRC.

    Helped APD deal with this guy a few months later.

    pat

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    We're issued M4A1s (fully automatic) or Mk18s (fully automatic) for rifles. For subguns we used to have HK MP5KNs with 3-round burst trigger group (FA trigger groups were reserved for training purposes only - because reasons), but those have all been turned in because big Navy isn't supporting them anymore. Now we have some Colt 9mm SMGs that are FA, but those are MOSTLY used as training guns for ranges where we can't shoot rifle rounds. Theoretically, a Field Office SAC can authorize their operational use - but why would they? Our M4/Mk18s are individually assigned and zero'd, the Colts are "pool guns" with BZO. The 5.56 has better reach and barrier penetration, the Colt is basically a VERY large and heavy handgun that's loaded with our fairly anemic and 30+ year old 9mm JHP.
    Now THAT's funny.

    I thought they never caught on with you guys. The AIC for one of your details told us that one of the lessons learned from the Navy Yard shooting is that the protection office needed more long guns, and in response they received a shipment of Colt SMGs which they left crated up since the MP5 was still in use. I had no idea that you guys dropped the MP5 but kept the anachronistic Colt SMG.

    Even we finally got rid of them. Until your post, the only agency/unit of note that I could think of still using them was NYC Correction's ESU.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

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