AR15 question.

[psalms144.1]

Even we finally got rid of them. Until your post, the only agency/unit of note that I could think of still using them was NYC Correction's ESU.

There was a period of time when the Colt SMGs were SPECIFICALLY identified as training use only; but that changed recently after the MP5s got turned in. Funniest part of that is big Navy doesn't support the Colt's EITHER, so I have NO idea why we kept those instead of the MP5s.

I think we're headed towards a situation where we'll turn the Colts in as well, and just issue M4s to everyone who needs a long gun.

[Ed L]

From a storytelling point of view, this statement is pedantic. It would be like saying "wet salty Atlantic sea water". It also violates the "Show. Don't Tell" rule. The writer could identify the rifle carried by the officer as an AR then show it being used in full auto mode with the officer firing it in bursts.

Good point, but in the course of the story the gun might not necessarily be fired. Or it might wind up fired 150 pages later at which point a casual reader might not ever remember the specifics of the gun. If you are introducing a gun, it is best to introduce a little about it at the time. Keep in mind that not all readers are gun people. So while describing a handgun as a "Glock 19 9mm" might seem like overkill, since all Glock 19s are 9mms, it isn't for someone who did not know guns.

Another problem with "show don't tell" is that it can lead to some contrived dialog and situations that can more easily be described by a sentence or two of narrative or description. A line like this would explain it: "The SWAT team was equipped with M4 carbines. Even though the gun was full auto capable their SOP was to use it in semiauto only for most situations since full auto brought with it the risk of stray rounds."

[John Hearne]

FWIW, I think the U.S. Military considers the short M-16 pattern weapons to be submachine guns. The carbine version is the M-4. The M-3 that preceded it was what - a submachine gun.

[JRB]

FWIW, I think the U.S. Military considers the short M-16 pattern weapons to be submachine guns. The carbine version is the M-4. The M-3 that preceded it was what - a submachine gun.

The Colt models 607-610 which were adopted in limited numbers in some variants as the XM-177 and the GAU-5A, were all categorized as SMG's. Those were the only 5.56 NATO weapons categorized as such in military nomenclature to my knowledge, though the Colt 933 was used by some hi-speed Marines in some cases, and I don't know the nomenclature for that, and attempts to google it and find more info finds a bunch of video game stuff, so that's inconclusive.

Developments with 14+in barrels starting with the Colt 653 (which eventually became the M4) were all categorized as a carbine in military nomenclature. Same goes for the later adoption of the 10.3in CQBR/MK18 program- all still called a carbine, though it's often shipped as an upper and buffer kit for installation on existing M4's.

[UNM1136]

The Colt models 607-610 which were adopted in limited numbers in some variants as the XM-177 and the GAU-5A, were all categorized as SMG's. Those were the only 5.56 NATO weapons categorized as such in military nomenclature to my knowledge, though the Colt 933 was used by some hi-speed Marines in some cases, and I don't know the nomenclature for that, and attempts to google it and find more info finds a bunch of video game stuff, so that's inconclusive.

Developments with 14+in barrels starting with the Colt 653 (which eventually became the M4) were all categorized as a carbine in military nomenclature. Same goes for the later adoption of the 10.3in CQBR/MK18 program- all still called a carbine, though it's often shipped as an upper and buffer kit for installation on existing M4's.

I believe you are correct.10 seconds on Google confirms. And CAR in CAR-15 stood for COLT AUTOMATIC RIFLE. Looks like a nomenclatural hiccough while the system sorted itself out. At the time there were limited numbers of Sterling SMGs Sweedish Ks, M-3s and M1928s in inventory and the M1 (and 2 and 3). The shorter barreled guns ran, well, short, the M1 carbine family took intermediate ammunition with an 18 inch barrel, and the other rifles in service started at 22 inches, and were in calibers that began in "3" (or 7 metric). A 10 inch barreled gun shooting the 5.56 cartridge really had no frame of reference in the inventory. Kinda like the PDW cartridges currently available to some. Despite what they were officially called, today they would be classified as carbines.

Uncle Pat identified GAU5s in photos when they came through his classes.

pat

[MistWolf]

Good point, but in the course of the story the gun might not necessarily be fired. Or it might wind up fired 150 pages later at which point a casual reader might not ever remember the specifics of the gun. If you are introducing a gun, it is best to introduce a little about it at the time. Keep in mind that not all readers are gun people. So while describing a handgun as a "Glock 19 9mm" might seem like overkill, since all Glock 19s are 9mms, it isn't for someone who did not know guns.

Another problem with "show don't tell" is that it can lead to some contrived dialog and situations that can more easily be described by a sentence or two of narrative or description. A line like this would explain it: "The SWAT team was equipped with M4 carbines. Even though the gun was full auto capable their SOP was to use it in semiauto only for most situations since full auto brought with it the risk of stray rounds."

All true, especially about the use of a sentence or two of description. While I called "Show. Don't Tell" a rule, it's a flexible one and as you pointed out, sometimes just doesn't fit the narrative.

[UNM1136]

Also, one of my fondest 16 year old memories was shooting a prototype colt 9mm carbine that was integrally surppressed.....picture a colt 9mm SMG, and stop the barrel at the end of a standard length 9 inch handgaurd. Now stick the top part of a standard front sight tower about 3/4 the way down.

Look:



Shot it suppressed next to a MP5SD, and was impressed.

Yeah my 16 year old memories were more guns than girls...judge me.

pat

[JRB]

Also, one of my fondest 16 year old memories was shooting a prototype colt 9mm carbine that was integrally surppressed.....picture a colt 9mm SMG, and stop the barrel at the end of a standard length 9 inch handgaurd. Now stick the top part of a standard front sight tower about 3/4 the way down.

Look:



Shot it suppressed next to a MP5SD, and was impressed.

Yeah my 16 year old memories were more guns than girls...judge me.

pat

My first mag dump from an MP5 (a Hard Times RR built from an HK94 into an MP5A2) and a factory Colt M16A1 came when I was ~13, and I remember that as vividly as I remember my first kiss, which was about a year later. The kiss wasn't as good.

So... no judgement here!