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Thread: Trident Concepts Scoring - Touch Line = Miss

  1. #1

    Trident Concepts Scoring - Touch Line = Miss

    Jeff Gonzales scoring system counts any bullet that partially touches or goes past the line as a miss. He was one of the first people I trained with that had scores as a requirement for a certificate. So I had just assumed that’s how it was. But now I’m watching more drills/standard videos on YouTube and it seems like everyone else counts partially hitting the line as a hit.

    I didn’t know better before training with Jeff so that’s how it always was for me that lines were misses. Seems like it could be a big deal because a 9mm round is .357 inches in diameter so if you count any part of the bullet hole as within the score ring then you have extended the score ring by 0.7 inches since you can get that extra 9mm on either side. That makes a 4” target be almost 20% bigger diameter which makes it almost 40% bigger in surface area.

    Should I be counting edge hits as hits? We’re targets and standards originally designed with edge hits in mind?

    What do IDPA and USPSA do? What do most LE agencies do?

    If Jeff just a mad man with too high standards? Our class of 24 people only had 2 certificates issued. I was not one of the recipients.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post

    Should I be counting edge hits as hits? We’re targets and standards originally designed with edge hits in mind?
    You mean for your own personal tests? You can do whatever you want to do. If you are following someone else's tests and standards, use their grading system.

    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post

    What do IDPA and USPSA do? What do most LE agencies do?
    IDPA and USPSA and every competition that I've been a part of - Breaking the line counts toward higher zone. That's also what FLETC does, but I can't speak for most LE agencies.

    It's been a while, but pretty sure when I had to use the 25m paper qualification in the Army, anything that touches the black counted.

    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post

    If Jeff just a mad man with too high standards? Our class of 24 people only had 2 certificates issued. I was not one of the recipients.
    He sets his own standards, so they are exactly what he wants them to be. Getting his certificate means exactly jack squat to anyone outside of that class, so they can't be 'too high.' It's not like Jeff is denying employment or positions are being unfilled because he has set the bar too high and not enough people are passing his exam.

    If the 'breaking the line' issue bothers you, remember he could always say line breaks count but require a higher numerical total to pass.
    Last edited by BigD; 03-18-2019 at 02:21 PM.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter jetfire's Avatar
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    I've heard of some people who use scoring like that, where the bullet hole must be entirely inside the target area. I think it works for some drills as a way to enforce a tighter accuracy standard.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  4. #4
    It’s entirely up to you how high of a standard you wish to set for yourself. I’ve heard of a few other instructors who also require the entire bullet hole to be inside the scoring area to count the hit. Most instructors I’ve trained with score any round for which the grease ring breaks the scoring line, whether or not the bullet hole itself is inside the scoring area. All three LE agencies I’ve worked for do the same. That’s generally what I do for my own training as well.

    The way I look at it, your target is X” in diameter. If the grease ring touches the edge of the target, the bullet has touched your target so that’s a hit. If you think that allows to lax of a standard, make the target smaller and shoot for the smaller target. Or don’t. Totally up to you.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post
    Jeff Gonzales scoring system counts any bullet that partially touches or goes past the line as a miss.
    As has been mentioned, there is no right or wrong, but I would say this is atypical. If you are measuring yourself against other published standards, typically a hit on a line counts for the higher value.

  6. #6
    Thank you all for replies so far. I think for myself, any kind of self-imposed standards I create, I'll go with Jeff Gonzales system because I like it better and it helps enforce higher accuracy.

    But if I am timing myself shooting any standards, whether they be LE or "drills" like Run Your Gun, then I'll count partial bullet holes as the higher score so that I can compare myself to published times using the intended methodology of those drills/standards.

  7. #7
    Note to self: don't take a .45ACP pistol to a TriCon class.
    “Well," said Pooh, "what I like best," and then he had to stop and think. Because although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were, but he didn't know what it was called.

  8. #8
    Prober-retaliator
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    My personal view is something that I believe I picked up from a Todd post somewhere along the way. If I want a tighter standard, I simply use a smaller target. So for me, I count anything that breaks the line. But as the saying goes, "When in Rome, do as Roman's do".
    "If failure is not an option, then, most of the time, neither is success." - Seth Godin

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  9. #9
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    People can always play one-upsmanship with standards. There’s likely a point of diminishing returns.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Full diameter hole in the target but touching the perf, and it's a miss? That's confusing for no good reason.

    How is a hit on a non-threat target scored?
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

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