Countries Restricting 737 MAX Flights After Second Crash

[entropy]

I must have been a forceps baby - as a paying customer, I still miss AA’s 80/83 fleet.

Nothing wrong with the Old Mad Dog besides burning too much gas, making too much noise, and not being able to cruise higher than tall Iowa corn! It’s older sister the -10 was the first transport category jet I flew. Didn’t have to worry about dirty cabin air as the natural leakage probably swapped the cabin air every 30 seconds. Lol

[TGS]

Nothing wrong with the Old Mad Dog besides burning too much gas, making too much noise, and not being able to cruise higher than tall Iowa corn! It’s older sister the -10 was the first transport category jet I flew. Didn’t have to worry about dirty cabin air as the natural leakage probably swapped the cabin air every 30 seconds. Lol

Do you guys in the cabin get to marinate in the same air we do back in steerage?

[GJM]

This is coming from a guy who has I assume well North of a couple 1000 hours flying light planes in Alaska as well as some rotor time (going by your previous posts). You sir are the exception to the rule as are most US pilots. In the rest of the world there is very little in the way of general aviation where young pilots fly for hundreds or thousands of hours before they get a chance to fly a beat up twin hauling freight before they get a chance to fly a commuter for a few more thousand hours before ending up in the right seat of a 737.

In the parts of the world these accidents occurred - the pilots are given the MINIMUM amount of time in light aircraft required to meet ICAO or local requirements. That means as little a 250 hours in light aircraft before they are sitting in the cockpit of a large transport airplane. Then for the rest of their flying career they will be engaging the autopilot at 500 feet and keeping it on until they reach minimums (unless they are doing an autoland). The thought of hand flying is both foreign and terrifying to them. In addition - many foreign countries issue what are known as MultiCrew Licenses which basically mean that their flying privileges are only applicable when operating in a multi-crew environment. So that first officer on the 777 you are taking across the ocean, well he wouldn't be able to walk into an FBO and fly a Cessna 152 on his own.

I flight instructed at a school that did the initial flight training for 3 major Asian airlines. In addition we did the initial flight training for many Asians and Europeans who were just needing to get their tickets. The stories I could tell.......... Basic things like kids from China having never driven a car not understanding the simple concept of slowing down before you try to take a sharp turn! Another is a story of a little guy form Indonesia who was a very weak student (physically as well as from a aviation standpoint). He had an uncle who owned an airline in Indonesia and all he needed to get was his CMEL rating. One day he was with his instructor doing multi-engine approaches and when told to go around on a touch and go - only advanced one throttle. The airplane did a VMC demo at 5 feet and cartwheeled. Miraculously they both survived! The FAA did their investigation and his instructor had to go through a whole string of rides to be able to instruct again, our Indonesian friend just found another school. I looked him up on FB a while back - he is a Captain on an A320. His instructor (who I keep contact with) just landed a job at a US major as a FO almost 20 years after the accident.

I have been flying nearly 40 years. I had 2,000 hours of single pilot King Air time when I was first typed in a jet in 2002. I think the depth and diversity of their flying experience is what differentiates many US airline and corporate pilots from pilots in other countries.

At the same time, the high demand for pilots in the US means that standards are going down. There was a fatal Beaver crash out of Ketchikan a month or so back, and the pilot on a 135 float plane flight had a total of FIVE float hours. I am somewhere in Utah now, and almost every 135 pilot here is new and green. Basically any pilot with a commercial certificate can get a flying job this year.

It is funny to hear about automation. When I learned to fly instruments, it was just the VOR, ADF and ILS. I remember the first King Air I flew had an RNAV, which was a box you could program three waypoints by manually entering the VOR, radial and distance. It seemed like magic at the time. As an aside, the sharpest my instrument scan has ever been, was when I was preparing for my ATP rotorcraft checkride by doing forty hours under the hood in a Long Ranger. Every time you moved the collective, it required a heading correction.

Back to MCAS, are there any known instances where the MCAS functioned as intended and prevented a loss of control?

[Suvorov]

Back to MCAS, are there any known instances where the MCAS functioned as intended and prevented a loss of control?

Not that I am aware of - that is the irony.

There is reported to be one instance of an inadvertent MCAS activation at a US Airline where it was quickly stopped by a pilot grabbing the trim wheel, but that is unconfirmed.

Barring some major economic catastrophe - the days of young pilots with thousands of hours fighting tooth and nail for a good 135 or commuter job are over. Now we just need to figure out how to train them on the stuff that is needed to keep them and their passengers safe.

[Suvorov]

Do you guys in the cabin get to marinate in the same air we do back in steerage?

Not sure about the MD80 but on the two transport aircraft I have flown, there are two air conditioning packs that supply air to the airplane. These packs take compressed air from the engine, cool it via an air-cycle machine, and pump it into the pressure vessel. One supplies 80% of the air to the cockpit and 20% to the cabin while the other is reversed. The re-circulation fans take some of the air from the cabin and re-introduces it into the flow into the cabin for two purposes 1) to lessen the load on the engine compressor and 2) to add moisture to the air (you get to guess where the moisture comes from) - the rest of the air is exhausted out the airplane through an outflow valve in the back. Given the difference in space between the cockpit and the cabin, their is a positive pressure differential in the cockpit. This ensures two things - 1) the cockpit crew have oxygen and 2) if there is smoke in the cabin - it forces the smoke out of the cockpit. By turning off the re-circulation fans (which is done when there is smoke in the cabin), the cockpit crew is breathing entirely different air than the cabin is.

[TGS]

Not sure about the MD80 but on the two transport aircraft I have flown, there are two air conditioning packs that supply air to the airplane. These packs take compressed air from the engine, cool it via an air-cycle machine, and pump it into the pressure vessel. One supplies 80% of the air to the cockpit and 20% to the cabin while the other is reversed. The re-circulation fans take some of the air from the cabin and re-introduces it into the flow into the cabin for two purposes 1) to lessen the load on the engine compressor and 2) to add moisture to the air (you get to guess where the moisture comes from) - the rest of the air is exhausted out the airplane through an outflow valve in the back. Given the difference in space between the cockpit and the cabin, their is a positive pressure differential in the cockpit. This ensures two things - 1) the cockpit crew have oxygen and 2) if there is smoke in the cabin - it forces the smoke out of the cockpit. By turning off the re-circulation fans (which is done when there is smoke in the cabin), the cockpit crew is breathing entirely different air than the cabin is.

So, no. Well, that's fortunate for you guys. I have no idea how FAMS or flight attendants do it, between the stench and dehydration.

I would've never guessed the air system was putting moisture into the passenger cabin.

I get so unbelievably dehydrated on long haul flights due to how dry the air is that I've found it's impossible to keep up by drinking water, even when I ask a flight attendant for an entire 1.5l bottle for myself and just down the thing.

If you guys have any tips or tricks regarding that (other than "fly a 787, pleb"), feel free to share.

[JAD]

Couple million miles, very few in dreamliners (though if you have the means I highly recommend picking one up). If I fast I don’t dehydrate. I only sit aisle so I don’t restrict my intake out of courtesy. My last long haul, AMS>IAD last Saturday, saw me put down 4l over 8h. I bring water, and I walk to the galley and beg for it and coffee. Gives me something to do.

[farscott]

The NYT article confirmed my worst fears. Lots of people knew the MCAS system in its final configuration relied on a single AoA sensor as those people "architected", designed, and tested the code. But none of them likely escalated a concern that there was a single sensor was an issue. This is common when code is outsourced via statements of work (SOW) as the designers just follow the requirements provided by the customer. There are both business and cultural issues with questioning customer requirements as questioning requirements only makes sense when programs pay by the hour versus fixed-price contract programs.

While there is a lot of blame to go around on the crashes, the engineering manager portion of me is sensitive to outsourcing issues. It is difficult when the HW and SW teams are not tightly integrated within the system team. Just getting test setups to match can take more hours than one would dream are needed.

[Guinnessman]

I have been flying nearly 40 years. I had 2,000 hours of single pilot King Air time when I was first typed in a jet in 2002. I think the depth and diversity of their flying experience is what differentiates many US airline and corporate pilots from pilots in other countries.

At the same time, the high demand for pilots in the US means that standards are going down. There was a fatal Beaver crash out of Ketchikan a month or so back, and the pilot on a 135 float plane flight had a total of FIVE float hours. I am somewhere in Utah now, and almost every 135 pilot here is new and green. Basically any pilot with a commercial certificate can get a flying job this year.

It is funny to hear about automation. When I learned to fly instruments, it was just the VOR, ADF and ILS. I remember the first King Air I flew had an RNAV, which was a box you could program three waypoints by manually entering the VOR, radial and distance. It seemed like magic at the time. As an aside, the sharpest my instrument scan has ever been, was when I was preparing for my ATP rotorcraft checkride by doing forty hours under the hood in a Long Ranger. Every time you moved the collective, it required a heading correction.

Back to MCAS, are there any known instances where the MCAS functioned as intended and prevented a loss of control?

Back in 2002-2003 when I was applying everywhere and anywhere to move on from flight instructing, getting a job at at Part 135 operators seemed just as hard as getting hired by a commuter. Nowadays, I don’t know how Part 135 Operators can keep anyone these days with the fast upgrade times at the regionals. Granted, upgrade times at a Part 135 operator are quick these days as well, but I doubt their pay can compare to a regional.

As for the many Part 134.5 Operators, it’s mind boggling that anyone would work at one of those joints in the current climate. My guess would be background check issues.

[DC_P]

Nothing wrong with the Old Mad Dog

You forgot hottest cockpit ever designed - I won't miss it a bit. After 12 looong years moving to the 737 next month. Mercifully we don't have any MAXs.