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Thread: Countries Restricting 737 MAX Flights After Second Crash

  1. #241
    Member wvincent's Avatar
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    So, ^^^^ if the EP checklist is followed, the aircraft can be safely hand flown? That's crazy talk. I have 0 hour in a 737, but close to 1500 hrs in 707/135 type. Not AC or CO, as enlisted aircrew. When CRM became the word of the day, we quit sending just the yoke turners to Texas for sim training, and began sending the whole crew, nav and boom. We all went through EP in the sim, matter of fact the nav and myself shared the front seats and ran the EP's. Great training, proves that the EP's work. I can truthfully state that every actual in flight issue we ever encountered was successfully resolved by following the published EP's.

    @GyroF-16, how much did CRM, or lack of it play into these two issues.

  2. #242
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    I know squat about the 737, but I am surprised that there is only one AOA sensor/indicator needed to make a decision that impacts flight dynamics. One sensor seems like an obvious single-point failure. Perhaps I am too used to DoD systems with triple modular redundancy which requires three functional systems, two of which must agree to provide valid data for system decisions.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    There have been several reports and links to reports earlier in this thread. From reading those, it looks like it went generally like this:

    Somewhere between takeoff and about 2000 ft AGL, an AOA probe failed. This caused the stick shaker on the side fed by the bad sensor to activate. When the flaps were retracted, MCAS activated, running some nose-down trim. The pilots struggled to hand-fly the jet, as MCAS activated several more times. The Lion Air crew extended flaps again, briefly (which stopped MCAS inputs), then retracted them, got more erroneous MCAS, and nosed into the ground.
    The Ethiopian Air crew eventually activated the stab trim cutout switch, (which stopped MCAS inputs) but then returned it to the “normal” position. MCAS then continued to trim nose down. Because the Ethiopian Air pilots also left the thrust levers at takeoff power, the airspeed build to over 300 kts. That led to aerodynamic forces that make manual adjustments to the trim wheel very difficult. Eventually the nose-down trim became too difficult to overcome, and the Ethiopian aircraft flew into the ground.

    I do have access to the AFM and emergency checklists, but don’t think it’s wise to post on a public forum, as they are proprietary. I’d be happy to discuss them over beers, though.

    Just know that the checklist for runaway stab trim directs a disconnection of autothrottles, and activation of the stab trim cutout switches. If these were both done promptly, and the pilots properly adjusted the thrust setting and hand-flew the airplane competently, all would have been well. I’ll also reiterate that the pilots can always override the MCAS inputs with the trim switch (prior to stab trim cutout). When the aircraft starts trimming itself in a way the pilot doesn’t like, he can always put the trim back where it belongs. Erroneous MCAS activation presents like a simple runaway trim. And the response (and checklist) is the same.

    There’s more to it (both in the accident timelines and the crew response), but that’s the essence of it. There was a malfunction of the aircraft (AOA probe). The crew didn’t correctly recognize and respond to it.
    Training in runaway trim is part of the 737 type rating, and is familiar to every professional pilot. When the trim runs in a Boeing aircraft, the pilots can see, hear, and feel it happening. And the stab trim cutout switch is checked as part of a challenge-response checklist prior to every flight. So the pilots certainly know where it is, and have been taught what its function is.
    Thanks for that explanation. As you know, Boeing has delivered over 10,000 737 aircraft since it first entered airline service in 1968. I quickly scanned fatal crashes, and while I see a bunch of hijacking and CFIT fatals, crashes related to runaway trim didn’t jump out to me, excepting the rudder problems typified by the United crash in 1991. Surely there have been numerous trim problems with 10,000 aircraft in airline service over 50 years.

    What do you think it is about the Max that has allowed two fatals to occur in short order? Why did Boeing design the MCAS system to continue with a failed AOA probe? If it was as simple as two crews not following the manufacturer’s emergency procedures, why is the Max grounded worldwide, with Boeing apparently making major revisions to the MCAS and perhaps other systems on the Max?
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  4. #244
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Countries Restricting 737 MAX Flights After Second Crash

    Quote Originally Posted by farscott View Post
    I know squat about the 737, but I am surprised that there is only one AOA sensor/indicator needed to make a decision that impacts flight dynamics. One sensor seems like an obvious single-point failure. Perhaps I am too used to DoD systems with triple modular redundancy which requires three functional systems, two of which must agree to provide valid data for system decisions.
    The software upgrade now takes data from both sensors. I agree with your assessment though on being a single point failure. Boeing’s response to this accusation is that it isn’t a single point failure because the PILOTS were there to handle any malfunction.

    Gyro. Thanks for your input! I had run out of steam to get as detailed as you did. Excellent posts!
    Last edited by Suvorov; 07-02-2019 at 08:05 PM.

  5. #245
    Here is a 737 Max system question — with the single AOA input, would any failure of the AOA input trigger the MCAS to start trimming, or only a certain kind of failure?
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  6. #246
    One thing Gyro and several other folks mentioned, but needs to be reiterated. With MCAS activation or AOA probe failure on the 737, if you disconnect the autopilot and autothrottle, you can hand-fly the airplane. Yes, you might have to manually trim, or fight the trim, but the runaway stabilizer/trim checklist works just fine for these scenarios.

    Where it gets more difficult is if the pilots leave the autopilot and autothrottles engaged.

    A pilot at a major US airline likely has the depth of experience that he/she is comfortable hand-flying a 737. This malfunction gets more complicated when the pilots leave the automation engaged and then try and troubleshoot it. My guess is the pilots involved in the two mishaps left the automation engaged because that is their comfort zone. A US pilot will typically toggle off the automation and once they have the aircraft under control, then the crew troubleshoots the malfunction.

    What Gyro implied is that a crew turned a malfunction into an emergency and subsequent crash because they could not handle the malfunction properly. They flew a flyable jet into the ground, most likely due to lack of proper training or experience.

    So who is responsible? That is where the politics will dominate. The airlines to not want more expensive training and additional type ratings. Nations do not want to admit their national airlines are unsafe or inadequate. Boeing does not want to say it was all their airplane’s fault. The pilots do not want to say they are poorly trained or that they are lousy pilots.

    Boeing and Airbus have two different products and design philosophies. The Airbus is much more automated, and pilots are more comfortable leaving the automation engaged. Boeing is a cable and hydraulics airplane, with automation grafted and duct-taped on top of it. I’m guessing the investigation will show the grafting of MCAS onto the 737 was inadequate, and needs to be revised. Lots of discussion will focus on automation or manual control (Airbus or Boeing). I’m interested in seeing where this takes the industry. Did Boeing take the 737 a generation too far? Should they have cut the cord and started with a new design? Will this signal the end of 737 development, and that a new 180-200 seat design is the best way forward?
    Last edited by Trigger; 07-02-2019 at 09:28 PM.
    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master"

  7. #247
    By chance, this past Sunday night while single pilot, 30 minutes out of Ketchikan over BC, the auto pilot went Tango Uniform on me at 410, and I couldn’t get it back online. I hand flew the aircraft two hours to Montana, descended through lumpy, convective clouds, and shot an ILS in a heavy rainstorm. The hardest part of the whole flight was taking a whiz at 410 without coming off my altitude. Not sure how much harder a 73 is to hand fly than a Citation, but it is a sad state when you can’t fly the plane without the automation.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #248
    Site Supporter entropy's Avatar
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  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Google “Children of Magenta”.
    The AA video, by that name, has been removed from YouTube, but I get the idea.

    Our practice, two crew, is for the pilot flying to hand fly to our cruise altitude, and then engage the auto pilot for cruise above FL280. On descent, the auto pilot comes off and the approach is hand flown. During high work load times, the auto pilot is engaged with the pilot flying monitoring the auto pilot, so the PNF can spend more attention on other things.

    Single pilot, the auto pilot is used from 1,000 agl on departure to about 1,000 agl on descent as a form of CRM. It is a lot of work to hold altitude within 50 feet at cruise while hand flying in the flight levels, and depending upon conditions it might be prudent to request a block altitude and hang out in the middle of the block!
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  10. #250
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    The AA video, by that name, has been removed from YouTube, but I get the idea.
    Vimeo, for any interested parties: https://vimeo.com/159496346

    @Triggerf16, @Suvorov, @entropy, @MistWolf, @GyroF-16,

    I heard that AA planned to retire the MD-80 in September. Do you guys think they will remain in service indefinitely to cover the MAX being grounded?
    Last edited by TGS; 07-03-2019 at 01:36 AM.
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