Except they weren’t. This is why two crashed to begin with.Originally Posted by GyroF-16
While I agree the differences in procedures between the NG and Max 8 aren’t materially substantial, it’s enough to impact the safety of flight in certain situations. Making Boeing certify the Max-8 as a distinct type rating also forces airlines -elite and the lowest common denominator alike- to communicate those minute differences to their pilots all over the world.
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
Europe? Depends on the country. Japan and Far East? Cultural issues come into play.
Just repeating what rumblings I’m hearing on the type rating issue.
This is aviation. When has common sense come into play in the last 25-30 years? Money and politics trump Bernoulli every time.
Last edited by entropy; 06-24-2019 at 12:41 PM.
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Western European countries do not have robust general aviation industries - as a result their pilots tend to come from either the small militaries they have (because the US has been protecting them from evil Putin) or "cadet programs" where high school and college age prospective pilots are selected for aptitude and then trained by the airline, generally in the United States and then placed in the airline's regional affiliate to gain flight experience. These cadets still make it to the line with pretty much the minimum amount of required experience but due to the general 1st world quality of the cadets and the airline's attitude towards training - this has resulted in a generally safe product. I do feel that most Western European carriers are equivalent safety wise to the US. This program is not without issues however as the German Wings crash showed.
When you start talking about 2nd world European Airlines and 1st World Asian carriers then you start getting into a lot of cultural issues like Entropy has pointed out. Lots has been written about it following the Asiana crash. Eastern European airlines have do deal with ingrained political corruption, poor funding, and often outdated unmaintained equipment (1990s Aeroflot being the prime example).
Latin American airlines kind of run the board. Some have very standardized training programs and are well funded but there are some cultural issues there as well.
Gulf State airlines tend to be very automation dependent and thrive on poor economic cycles in the first world in order to attract pilots. When times are bad, American, European, and Australian pilots go to the Gulf States and then when times are good in their home countries they leave jobs as A380 captains to take 737 First Officer positions at places like Southwest, United, and Delta. The Pay is OK but their schedules are brutal and that contributed to the Fly Dubai Rostov Crash.
As for 3rd world airlines...................
No - they were exactly the same. Had both flight crews correctly followed the runaway stabilizer trim procedures in a timely manner - nether aircraft would have been lost.
Thank you for this.
Interjet is the only lower end airline I’ve ever flown. I figured AeroMexico was decent, but it is a different world down there.
Respectfully- You don’t know what you’re talking about.
I fly 737s for a living, and have time in all the variants that I mentioned. The procedures ARE the same.
Two crashed because the pilots weren’t skilled enough at hand-flying and appropriately knowledgeable of procedures.
Erroneous MCAS activation is essentially uncommanded/undesirable pitch trim activation. It can be countered and overridden with the trim switch on the control yoke, and entirely disabled with a cutout switch that’s used to address runaway trim. The pilots in Indonesia and Ethiopia did not respond correctly to the situation they were presented with. It appears to me that simple runaway pitch trim (nose down) would have probably killed them, too.
Maintenance and safety practices need to be looked at in these accidents, too, since the Lion Air plane had exactly the same thing happen on a prior flight (either same day or day prior). A jumpseater (riding along in the cockpit to get somewhere) had to prompt the crew to activate the stab trim cutout switch to properly address the situation (as the checklist would have directed them to for runaway trim). But the same thing happened again to the next crew. Did they write up the malfunction? Was it diagnosed and fixed? And a new AOA sensor failed on the next flight? That strains credulity.
Again - I fly these planes. The method of operation, and flying characteristics are essentially the same. They are nothing like two different “types.”
Last edited by GyroF-16; 06-24-2019 at 01:31 PM.
Different indeed. Both culturally and operationally.
Folks here in the States are spoiled from what is the most safe and efficient aviation system in the world. We are literally light years ahead the majority of the world. People get all pissy when there is a delay, or the fares creep up $50 bucks. Fact is, what goes into getting Joe Sixpack (or Grandma Gertrude) from point “A” to point “B” is nothing short of astonishing. This is done EVERY day, THOUSANDS of times with a safety and efficiency record never before equalled.
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They can sit me in a bucket next to a goat and a democrat. As long as they get me safely there, I don’t care.
Have any of you flown a plane into Mexico ? What is the ATC like there?
I have flown into pretty much every medium to large city in Mexico. Hundreds of flights. My former airline actually had more destinations into and out of Mexico than any other airline in the world including the Mexican carriers.
Mexican commercial aviation is a mixed bag.
As far as ATC goes - they are generally very professional but very limited. Radio coverage in Mexico is decent at the higher altitudes but can be spotty down low. Radar coverage only exists at the high altitudes and at the major airports such as Mexico City and Guadalajara. At the smaller airports the approach controllers are simply using a plotter to check where you are in relation to other airplanes and thus rely upon you to give them position reports. This tends to work fine during good an moderate weather but can really get a little sketchy when you have convective weather "Thunderstorms" that require you to deviate during your arrivals. Dealing with convective weather is often above what Mexican ATC can really help you with. This is both good and bad. Good from the standpoint that when you ask for a deviation they generally give you the old "Royer" and let you on your own. Bad from the standpoint that they are not (nor can they often) going to warn you of bad weather or give you advisories. In theory they are still providing aircraft separation but I don't count on it and keep a close eye on the TCAS and sky.
Communication is generally not an issue. Some of us gringo's have a harder time understanding the controllers than others but generally speaking most of the major airspace Mexican ATC guys/gals are US trained and speak pretty good English. When you get to the more remote Mexican airports this can be an issue though. One other issue is that the Mexican aircraft will usually speak Spainish to ATC and on the common frequency which means that us gringos don't have as good of an idea of what is going on around us. Pilots are trained to listen to ATC chatter in order to develop a mental model/situational awareness - if you don't understand what the other pilots are saying then this severely limits this ability. Also the Mexicans tend not to have as much respect for the concept of using the radio for "required transmissions only" and you will often hear them chatting away with each other on the freq.
The other BIG threat in Mexico is the terrain. The mountains down in Mexico make what we have in the US look like hills. Guadalajara is at over 5000 feet elevation and is less than 100 miles from the coast. This is what we call rapidly rising terrain! Additionally there is a 16000 foot mountain between Mexico City and Puebla. Going into the mountainous regions of Mexico is always time to have your shit wired and be doing things by the book, but when you are doing it at night time, with weather, and out of radar coverage (which is not uncommon) and there is really little room for error. Still - I loved being able to cut my teeth down there and really enjoyed visiting the "real Mexico." Mexico City on the other hand - If I ever fly into that place again it will be too soon. It is a guaranteed Charley Foxtrot...... I can say that our flight data recorders recorded more than one instance of our crews not being prepared or just flat out criminally negligent and ended up missing hitting mountains by a couple hundred feet! They were LUCKY - that said the crew that was screwing off were fired pretty quickly right after the fact.
As for the Mexican Airlines - I see them as a mixed bag. The death of Mexican was in many ways good. AeroMexico took up the "Flag Carrier" position and this allowed smaller airlines like Interjet to be successful. Most Mexican pilots I know have come to the US to get their training but I suspect that some of the airlines there have a cadet program. Most of the time once the Mexican pilots have enough time to be a pilot at their airline (which I think is still just commercial license = 250 hours) then they are put in the right seat of an RJ or even 737/A320. All the guys I knew in flight school who were Mexican were well connected and part of the Mexican Elite (light skin) and all they needed were the hours. Still - life as a pilot in Mexico is not as good of a gig as it can be here and I've know guys who have left the Captain seat of airlines like Interjet to take a job at a Regional in the US. I understand that jobs at AeroMexico are pretty good but they are hard to get and only for the well connected. As far as safety goes - I'd say pretty typical of the 2nd world airlines. A lot of the guys down there are young and display they typical Latin American "machismo" which is not conducive to good CRM, add to that the terrain and I would say that if my kids were wanting to go on a EcoAdventure into Saltillo - I would feel much better with them being on a US flagged plane. That said - the Mexican airlines have not had any catastrophic losses for quite some time despite their challenges....
Last edited by Suvorov; 06-24-2019 at 02:50 PM.
Mexico has improved over the years, but still NOWHERE near the states. ATC radar coverage is minimal, with basic enroute capabilities and little weather capability. Approach facilities (ATC near airports) relay heavily on charted procedures with little additional assistance from ATC. Terrain avoidance relies heavily on crew competence with very little ATC oversight. Although English is the “official” language of aviation, much of the radio traffic is conducted in Spanish, which detracts from the ability to get the “overall picture” of what is happening around you, both in the terminal area and enroute. The ATC facilities and equipment itself is better than it was years back, but lacks the overall control and oversight of the facilities Stateside. There is a cultural aspect as well (which gets stronger the further south you go into Latin America). ATC assumes you are the “Cap-i-tan” and know exactly what you are doing and will not normally question what you’re doing...even if is going to kill you.
Back a few years, it was common for ATC to clear you from cruise altitude down to 3000’ when approaching Xtapa/Zihautanejo as the airport sits right on the ocean. Only problem is that there is a 12,000’+ peak to the northeast of the city. If you would use the common 3:1 decent profile from altitude down to 3000’....it would get a bit “interesting”. ATC would just assume you knew that and that you would fly accordingly. Nearly every thing done ATC-wise in the States has a story (and often times fatalities) surrounding it. The rest of the world is slow to learn many lessons we take for granted every day we fly here.
Edit to add...^^^^He types MUCH faster than me! Lol
Last edited by entropy; 06-24-2019 at 02:49 PM.
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