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Thread: SWAT Mag Article

  1. #41
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    Genuine question, if commonality uber alles is a massive concern, why have different pistols? If that's the approach you choose then you really should only ever be shooting one gun, possibly in different sizes.
    That IS the approach I take. I own a few sentimental/just-because guns but don't use them for training. Every TDA gun I own is a Sig P2XX. Every striker fired gun I own is a Glock (except the Shield, and if Glock had made a gun that size when I bought it, I'd have the Glock). I own a variety of revolvers, but only Rugers have seen any carry. The reason I got into Sigs was I wanted a hammer fired gun and with my crooked fingers the finger grooves on Glocks compromised my grip and rapidly caused blisters. Now that we've went to the Gen 5, my Sigs sit in the safe. I hold on to them because they don't eat anything and I might return to them after retirement.
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  2. #42
    Site Supporter SAWBONES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    If you're grabbing the slide on a P7 to release it, you're wasting time and movement.
    Yeah.
    It violates H&K's advertised "Continuous Motion Principle" for the P7 series.
    "Therefore, since the world has still... Much good, but much less good than ill,
    And while the sun and moon endure, Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
    I'd face it as a wise man would, And train for ill and not for good." -- A.E. Housman

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    Genuine question, if commonality uber alles is a massive concern, why have different pistols? If that's the approach you choose then you really should only ever be shooting one gun, possibly in different sizes.
    As BBI stated, many of us do that already. My agency forces me to carry a Glock on duty. So I train and compete with Glocks. Even during a match I use a concealable style holster, and ALL my Glocks have factory triggers. Iím not going to get rid of all my non-Glock guns. Some are sentinmental, some novelty, and some fill a niche role (J-frame as an example). But my carry and competition guns are Glocks in all sizes (17L, 34, 17, 19, 26, 43).

    Even on days when I bring my Beretta 92, 1911, Smith 625, etc. I always try to make sure the last gun I shoot before heading back into the world is a Glock.



    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    I think shit like that is overblown personally and use and recommend the slide stop even between different pistols. but if you're that concerned about having no cognitive ability under stress, then you shouldn't have a collection of guns you should have an armoury of them (with apologies to Chuck P for stealing his concept)

    I donít think anyone (especially on P-F) is worried about having no cognitive ability under stress. We just understand how the brain works. We understand how stress affects performance. As a firearms instructor Iíve seen LEOís who shoot a gun they arenít used to and try to activate some switch or button that isnít there or works differently. Thatís partly because they are used to their regular gun, and partly from stress (turning targets and timers affect some shooters more than others).

    Part of the issue is DNA related. I know shooters who can pick up any gun theyíve never seen before and run it like a professional shooter within a couple minutes. Iíve seen other shooters who use the same exact weapon for 20 years and never try anything different but still struggle. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. Itís not so simple as saying people have no cognitive ability under stressÖ itís about training smartly and capitalizing on being more efficient and more proficient by focusing on one system. While I am not one of those super gifted shooters, I am confident in my ability to pick up any gun (even an old Sig P230 which lacks a slide stop lever) and run it in a fight for my life. But because I spend most of my time running Glocks (and I send the slide forward using my thumb on the lever) I know I can run a Glock using my subconscious.

    Every shooter will have different abilities. As an FI, we try to ID those abilities and nurture them. I know which shooters can do stuff while Iím next to them shooting a SBR M-4 as a distraction, and which shooters I need to be standing over so they donít muzzle anyone when they have a ďhelmet fireĒ because the pistol locked back when they werenít expecting it. For most shooters though, itís not overblown because they donít train that much. They need the simplest techniques so they can recall them under stress. I think sometimes we (P-F) forget that we hold ourselves to a higher standard and the rest of the world doesnít train even 20% of what we do.

  4. #44
    Member HopetonBrown's Avatar
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    I know a nice Silicon Valley guy who seems particularly concerned about fine vs gross motorskills, battlefield pick ups, and that the manufacturer calls it a slide stop, not a slide release. The last time I was on the range with him he shot a 20 second FAST test, including penalties. Telling him his priorities might be out of order would just fall on deaf ears.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
    I know a nice Silicon Valley guy who seems particularly concerned about fine vs gross motorskills, battlefield pick ups, and that the manufacturer calls it a slide stop, not a slide release. The last time I was on the range with him he shot a 20 second FAST test, including penalties. Telling him his priorities might be out of order would just fall on deaf ears.
    I use to tell shooters who were obsessing about fine motor skill loss under stress to buy an M-2 Browning belt fed. At least they could mash the butterfly with the gross motor skills. Lol!

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Perhaps we should start a support group.
    Include me in... I came up using the "slide release" and so it goes. In fact I'm inclined (now that I've had some experience with it on my G35) adding the extended slide release to my G27. After shooting my G35 my son wants to have one on his G23. I learned on a 1911. Unapologetic SR user...

  7. #47
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powell556 View Post
    D) As a civilian, I'm far more likely to need to perform a malfunction clearance, keeping the same mag in the gun, than I am to need to reload.

    and as a person who generally never carries a spare mag CCW, it makes far more sense for me to skip the slide release button method.
    What are you going to do when (not if) you get a double feed? That'll be a slow as fuck malfunction clearance with no spare mag, and will likely get you killed in the street.

  8. #48
    Site Supporter NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I hope we're not going to nitpick the language of this one.
    Oh boy, the TK fan boys are already in a tizzy... ;-)

    The slide release lever and the mag release paddle on the PPQ are idiot proof, as demonstrated by my ability to use them efficiently. I guess I need slide-release lever therapy too.

    I find the robotic scanning after finishing a string of fire to be good for keeping my neck muscles limber, and remaining cognizant of anything encrusted with cameras that may have recorded my pitiful shooting skills.

    Those who worry about loss of fine motor skills under stress might benefit from a reduction of red meat in their diets. A steaming hot bowl of oatmeal is as good as anything for breakfast.

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  9. #49
    What's the big deal? If Powell556 wants reach over the top for every slide, that's his business. If he's running a wide variety of handguns and is comfortable doing so, so what? I grew up shooting a wide variety of firearms and felt it was my responsibility to become familiar to the manual of arms of each of them. So did my father. If I didn't learn them, I didn't get to shoot. Limiting yourself to one type of pistol is a foreign notion to me.

    I also used the hand over slide method because during my formative years, the mantra was that using the slide stop place wear on the slide. (I don't care if it was true or not. That's what was the standard of the time and I can't go back and change it.) Today, it depends. Sometimes I use the slide release, sometimes I use the hand over the slide. When reloading the PPQ from slide lock, I hit the slide release. When reloading a Glock from slide lock, I hit the slide release, hit it again, cuss, then yank back on the slide because I can never get that little dinky slide release to work! Factory controls on a Glock are primitive. I don't use the slingshot method because I find it awkward.

    I question the whole fine motor skill/gross motor skill debate. I think the idea that mashing on a button with your thumb is a fine motor skill is ludicrous. You don't have to worry about how far you press it. It's not like you have to press it just right to get the round to load correctly. You just mash it! I think hitting the slide release is very much a gross motor skill. It's a very simple thing to do and requires zero finesse.

    No matter how fine versus gross motor skill tasks are parsed, a motivated human being is going to do what needs to be done, especially when fighting for their life.
    Robot 1: "I understand now. Humans died out from environmental disaster."
    Robot 2: "Yeah, pretty much. And also because at one point, they genetically engineered their cats to give them opposable thumbs."
    -Love Death + Robots

  10. #50
    Surprised no one dropped this yet (or they did and I missed it)

    https://pistol-training.com/archives/160

    Anyone ever get the Pat Roger's nod, grin, and thumbs up? As an instructor, I need to present techniques, and I should have reasons for doing what I do. I also need to know where my role ends, and that not everyone will agree with me. When Pat corrected you on the line, and you explained why you were doing what you were doing, rather than what he asked you to do, you got the nod, smile, and thumbs up. It was not always condescension, rather it was his way of acknowledging that right then you weren"t with him, for whatever reason, and he had already been paid and he needed to move on to someone else. But usualy it was condescension.

    TLG and I had a couple of very similar conversations when I ended up the second worst shooter in the AFHF class. Several members of this forum were there to witness it.

    Ever teach someone with a bonafide disability? You must have alternates to offer that work. And be able to teach/demo/correct them. It is on the instructor to provide workable alternatives, but the student needs to be willing to learn. If a student is with you more than half the time, and disagreeing with you the rest of the time you are earning your money as an instructor. They don't have to be impressed by you, or even persuaded by you 100% of the time to learn something from you. The instructor needs to understand that, swallow some ego and the need to be right, and convey the information they have.

    That said, I was a run the slide guy by training and experience until I started running a 1911. My 1911 (a Pat Rogers spec'd Kimber, bought from Lightfighter) )was great until I decided to protect my investment with a Wilson Shock Buff. The slide stop notch was too far rearward for the slide to drop with the overhand technique. It simply would not work. My choice was to remove the shock buff, and continue the way I had for years , or learn to drop the slide with my thumb on the slide stop lever. I trained dry and live with strong and support thumbs at spent several 1,000 round classes proofing my decision, and left the shock bluffs in, even if JMB did not have them in the original 1911 design. I figured Bill Wilson was one of his angels, protecting my frame from battering. I have had no problems with that gun, which I relied on for EDC and Patrol work for almost a decade and a half. Now that I am no longer carrying a .45. I am still using the slide stop because it is so much faster. But Tap-Roll-Rack can be applied to a reload, when you think about it. And commonality and pickups are not a problem with me. I have been to several classes where instructors set up malfunctions, from out of ammo to field stripping someone else's gun on the line so you had to reassemble a battlefield pick up. Possible? Yes, but not really. Stress inducing? Yes. A problem on the line? Not even a little bit.

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 03-21-2019 at 07:00 PM.

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