Shooters Vs Collectors/Gun Owners

[Sauer Koch]

The comment below is from @Alpha Sierra, and the specific parts in red is something I've been thinking about lately.

I wouldn't recommend a Glock. I would recommend something else based on my own experience.

More to the point I'm not sure how, or if, I would recommend anything.

My experience, sadly, has been that most people who ask me about firearms don't want knowledge. They want validation. And I can tell immediately because no sooner than I'm finished talking the "but" rebuttals start from the other person.

There is only ONE person in my circle of friends who is truly serious about firearm use and is motivated enough to actually seek training. We mostly shoot long range precision rifles together and it's a pleasure to spend a day at the range with him.

Everyone else is either a recreational user/collector, and if they carry they've had zero training and show no interest in it.

At work I avoid these conversations not because of politics (I work in a very gun friendly environment) but because the one guy who is always looking for conversation is the validation type and he's a gun of the month club member (something I care nothing about).

I'm in the same boat, in that most of the people I know own defensive pistols (1-3) but his comment about people carrying, but have no interest in formal training, is what baffles me. I started shooting defensive pistols in Jan 2016, and have been very consistent ever since, which means I shoot 4-5 times a month. I got my carry permit in August of '17, and was a little surprised at how easy the course was. I'm sure they vary in quality, but mine was primarily about the legal issues that will arise if and when you shoot someone, with no time spent on how to shoot. At the end, you shot the state Qual, which is simply three rounds of 12-shots, and as long as they were inside the borders of the silhouette target, you passed, which is scary in itself.

In Dec 2016, my wife and I both did a full day Intro Pistol course locally, which was our first time doing any formal training. I've done two private sessions with a local trainer, and shot in two IDPA matches, and did Gabe White's PSS class a few weeks ago. After this amount of training I feel pretty confident in my skills, but I realize it's just a good foundation to work from.

Now that I've become a shooter, I'm amazed at how most of the gun world are simply owners/collectors. 'Owners' in that they own a gun, but shoot a couple of time a year, simply 'burning lead'. Within this class, are those who also like to buy lots of guns, but again, don't really shoot them much at all. I just find it odd/interesting that of all the people who own guns in this country, the vast majority are NOT shooters. Shooter being those who buy quality gear, and seek out formal training, and strive to become more skilled, and can actually perform during timed drills, and other ways of being tested.

The issue of cops not being gun guys (shooters) is another facet of this picture. I have several LE friends, and sure enough, only appear to shoot for annual Quals.

When my wife did her carry class, there was a woman there who had never shot a gun before, but bought one right before the class, and learned to shoot it for the qual. Now, that is scary!

Although I can't remember specifically, I think my jump to 'shooter' was hanging with a buddy I met while training BJJ, a Ranger, who showed me a thing or two about how to shoot better. From that point on, I began to get back into shooting (other than hunting rifles & shotguns), and I haven't looked back, and slowly but surely, getting my wife more and more involved, and more recently shot her second IDPA match; she was sold after the first time!

Sorry for rambling on, I guess the question becomes, what was it that made you progress from a 'gun owner', to a 'shooter'?

[Jay Cunningham]

I’ve never had a real driving class, and I suspect I’m way more likely to use that skill than all my shooting skills.

People are who they are.

Perhaps I’ll get trained up some day.

[Totem Polar]

Honestly, the easy availability of decent classes close to me is what ramped up my shooting. I’m no world-class competitor, but I do try to get to the range about once a week, and I try to junkie up on at least 2 classes a year, because they’re there. If I had to travel and overnight (as was the case for decades) I’d necessarily shoot less.

[Alpha Sierra]

I’ve never had a real driving class, and I suspect I’m way more likely to use that skill than all my shooting skills.

The two driving schools I took long ago through the Porsche Club of America plus three seasons of autocross gave me some skills that have become invaluable and have saved my ass in instances where many others would have given up and wrecked.

On the topic at hand, I have never been a owner/collector. My very first exposure to firearm ownership was skeet competition and outside of defense my other reason to own a particular firearm is to compete. IDPA, USPSA, NRA Highpower, NRA Smallbore, skeet leagues, trap leagues and registered NSCA sporting clays and PRS club matches are things that I either do or have done and give me a reason to own the variety that I have.

Plinking is something I rarely if ever do, and guns that collect dust (like a CMP Garand) get sold to fund stuff I will actually use.

[pangloss]

When my wife did her carry class, there was a woman there who had never shot a gun before, but bought one right before the class, and learned to shoot it for the qual. Now, that is scary!

When I moved to TN, TN didn't recognize the class I had to take to get my NC permit. The instructor of the TN class had Ruger MkIII's for people who didn't own guns to use to shoot the qualification. One woman in the class didn't own a gun and had never shot a gun before class, but she fulfilled all the legal requirements. I understand your unease with the situation, but the data don't really bear out your concern. Several states have constitutional carry now and those states have not experienced a dramatic increases in accidental shootings. (At least as far as I know. I've lived in two states when they enacted constitutional carry, and I didn't see blood running in the streets.)

Having said that, I think you're doing exactly the right thing shooting as often as you do and taking classes. One of my best friends is a "gun guy" but not a "shooter." Drives me crazy.

[Jay Cunningham]

We could have a whole different thread on people who I've shot with in classes and also who I've taught in classes who were probably not in the right place.

I also would include what I myself was like in my first formal class.

p.s. We've had innumerable discussions on class prerequisites and their enforceability.

[okie john]

Sorry for rambling on, I guess the question becomes, what was it that made you progress from a 'gun owner', to a 'shooter'?

My father started teaching me to shoot when I was 5, or 52 years ago. He hunted and shot NRA Big Bore, Service Rifle, and Smallbore at the time, so that's what I learned. He owned a representative sample of guns and appreciated everything about them, so he fits in both camps. So do I.

To me, a shooter is someone who shoots frequently. Whether they shoot up old lawnmowers full of Tannerite or actively seek training and work to get better is a different issue.


Okie John

[the Schwartz]

*snip*...what was it that made you progress from a 'gun owner', to a 'shooter'?

There is a balance in there....somewhere.

I suppose that I am a bit of both and always have been, so no ''sudden awakening'' for me. I own more guns than I will likely ever need for a whole lot of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with the utilitarian task (being a 'shooter'), having more to do with the fact that they are collectable (at least in some manner or fashion known only to me) or valuable or inheritable.

After an entire career (in LE) that was necessarily ''heavy'' on training and despite the fact that I really did enjoy it all, it (training) now takes up much less of my time than it used to. While I could easily afford to take a training course every week of the year, I don't do so for obvious reasons (there is more to life than shooting and training; I know that borders upon blasphemy for some). Besides my annual LEOSA qualifications, I do get some training to remain proficient usually 'bout once a year. Sometimes I do more than that, but a week and a half a year seems to get the things done that need to be done. Then, there's plenty of range time throughout the year also to practice and refine what I have refreshed/retained....

[TC215]

When I moved to TN, TN didn't recognize the class I had to take to get my NC permit. The instructor of the TN class had Ruger MkIII's for people who didn't own guns to use to shoot the qualification. One woman in the class didn't own a gun and had never shot a gun before class, but she fulfilled all the legal requirements. I understand your unease with the situation, but the data don't really bear out your concern. Several states have constitutional carry now and those states have not experienced a dramatic increases in accidental shootings. (At least as far as I know. I've lived in two states when they enacted constitutional carry, and I didn't see blood running in the streets.)

Having said that, I think you're doing exactly the right thing shooting as often as you do and taking classes. One of my best friends is a "gun guy" but not a "shooter." Drives me crazy.

My PD puts on handgun permit classes, and I’m one of the instructors. Every class we do, we always have multiple people that have never touched a gun before. We’ve never had any real issues.

[Sauer Koch]

I agree that it’s EVERYONES right to own/carry a gun if they choose to, it just seems that more people would seek out training, rather than assume they know everything they need to about carrying one.

What about raising the standards? Should the qualification (shooting, gun handling) for a carry permit be revised, and made to be more comprehensive, simply to ensure they are more safe and skilled?

When my wife mentioned to me that she wanted to get her permit, I was all for it, but I made her agree that she’d become a more serious shooter, and acquire above average shooting/handling skills, and she agreed. One trip to a public range, and seeing someone shooting a 9mm pistol, but the target looks like they’re shooting #2 bird shot with an improved cylinder, is all you need to see, to realize the need to be better than ‘average’.

She gets real excited Shooting our .45 Dan Wesson A2 1911, not because it’s a DW, but because “it makes big holes”! oh, and when she shoots a better group than me! Hypothetically of course