What Should I Be Doing At The Range?

[olstyn]

Standing and delivering at 25 yards: not very relevant or realistic if self defense is all you care about.

Indeed. One could make a decent argument for that being a very competition-focused goal. I had to take down a popper at ~50 yards in a match last summer (took me two shots, which I didn't feel horrible about), but anything much over 10 or 15 yards in most defensive scenarios raises questions about why you weren't running vs shooting, which probably leads to an uncomfortable time trying to justify your actions as those of a reasonable person.

None of the above is meant to suggest that learning to shoot quickly and well at 25 yards or more isn't worth doing; it just doesn't seem like a "purely defensive focus" to me.

[Alpha Sierra]

This is a great point and it's something that I've thought about a lot and that makes me work things like strings of fire, trying to control recoil and get sights on target as quickly as possible.

I can theoretically practice drawing fast and getting first round on target fast "dry" but I don't know if I actually hit the target. I can estimate if I hit if as I press the trigger, and after I'm done pressing the trigger, the sights are aligned on target.

You probably could benefit from one of Stoeger's dry fire books as well.

[Alpha Sierra]

Indeed. One could make a decent argument for that being a very competition-focused goal. I had to take down a popper at ~50 yards in a match last summer (took me two shots, which I didn't feel horrible about), but anything much over 10 or 15 yards in most defensive scenarios raises questions about why you weren't running vs shooting, which probably leads to an uncomfortable time trying to justify your actions as those of a reasonable person.

None of the above is meant to suggest that learning to shoot quickly and well at 25 yards or more isn't worth doing; it just doesn't seem like a "purely defensive focus" to me.

Yeah, off the cuff the main reason I can see for a justified shooting that far would be dealing with an active shooter. But there's so much more low hanging fruit before going there.

Example: much has been said that criminals often attack in groups, typically followed by "that's why I no longer carry insert-low-capacity-handgun". Well, OK, if you have more than one attacker to deal with, you better be able to transition between targets quickly. How much of that 25 yd practice would have been more useful working transitions both laterally and longitudinally? The answer is "most of it".

[powell556]

It's tough to see the connection between those stated goals and a purely defensive use/interest in handguns.

I'd be focusing on making the hits you need to make at more realistic distances (10 yards and in) while moving explosively off the line/away from an attacker and a high level of proficiency in one-handed shooting (with either hand).

Standing and delivering at 25 yards: not very relevant or realistic if self defense is all you care about.

That makes a lot of sense. I think the reason my goal was 25 yard precision shooting is because it seems like if I can do that, then I can also take shoot accurately at more realistic close ranges. And those fringe active attacker scenarios benefit from the 25 yard precision shooting. There could be a situation where I'm in the backyard of my family member's house, who has about 50 yards from end to end, where I need to shoot a threat so that is within the realm of possibility.

Also, I can put rounds on an 8" circle all day at 10 yards, pretty quickly, with two hands, strong hand only, or weak hand only. It's hard for me to get excited to go to the range to keep shooting that mediocre standard going, even though I realize that mediocre standard is good enough for real world civilian encounters. Perhaps then I do have a competitive mindset, but the competition is purely against myself, in being able to make 25 yard head shots. It seems like a nice stretch goal to keep me motivated and at 25 yards is where problems in my shooting really magnify. At 3 yards I can do a poopy job at shooting and still get all the rounds on small target in a decent group. The 25 yard target doesn't lie.

Well, OK, if you have more than one attacker to deal with, you better be able to transition between targets quickly. How much of that 25 yd practice would have been more useful working transitions both laterally and longitudinally? The answer is "most of it".

I see the benefit to and like the idea of transitioning targets quickly. I can't set up multiple targets at my indoor range. The best I can do is something like the Casino Drill targets and transition targets a few inches apart on the same sheet of paper. Would that train the same skill as transitioning targets a few feet apart? I assume it's no where near as good, but maybe it's better than nothing.

So back to what should I be doing at the range given these good suggestions from Alpha Sierra:

Maybe I set a realistic standard such as fast draw to initial shot at 10 yards, everything in an 8" group, two hand, strong hand only, weak hand only. And once I establish I can do that (Which I currently can, it's not that hard), I then can "play" at longer ranges with trying to make tight groups at 25 yards? Right now I'm shooting at 25, seeing large groups, and bringing the target in a bit to push it out slowly to 25.

I'll check out some of the material linked earlier in this post later this week.

[Alpha Sierra]

That makes a lot of sense. I think the reason my goal was 25 yard precision shooting is because it seems like if I can do that, then I can also take shoot accurately at more realistic close ranges. And those fringe active attacker scenarios benefit from the 25 yard precision shooting. There could be a situation where I'm in the backyard of my family member's house, who has about 50 yards from end to end, where I need to shoot a threat so that is within the realm of possibility.

While it is true that accuracy at distance translates into accuracy up close, what doesn't translate easily is the speed in which you need to make those hits. The balance between speed and accuracy and the specific techniques of grip and trigger control are very different when hosing something 3 - 5 yards away compared to trying to hit a 3x5 card five to seven times farther away. You can't assume you'll be good at both just because you're good at one. Lastly don't confuse "possibility" with "probability" and spend your time wisely.

I see the benefit to and like the idea of transitioning targets quickly. I can't set up multiple targets at my indoor range. The best I can do is something like the Casino Drill targets and transition targets a few inches apart on the same sheet of paper. Would that train the same skill as transitioning targets a few feet apart? I assume it's no where near as good, but maybe it's better than nothing.

Make the best of current situation, but I strongly recommend finding some place outdoors where you can shoot with more flexibility even if you have to drive farther. Within the confines of an indoor shooting lane, hang the widest possible target and use that for transitions.

[GuanoLoco]

There is a reason I suggested the Gabe White Standards - At 7 yards, the focus is speed AND accuracy. The upper tiers of light and especially Turbo Pin are no joke.

After I took @SouthNarc’s ECQC class I’d say that the skills from Gabe’s material served me well, however, it also made it clear that precise 25 yard shooting at speed is likely no more than fantasy. Even 7 yards seems a rather generous, and unlikely gift o the shooter.

For closer, precise shooting at speed I might suggest the Garcia Dots drill / Stoeger also does this. Try at 3,5,7 yards, holding times with up to 6 shots.

[Alpha Sierra]

Also, I can put rounds on an 8" circle all day at 10 yards, pretty quickly, with two hands, strong hand only, or weak hand only. It's hard for me to get excited to go to the range to keep shooting that mediocre standard going, even though I realize that mediocre standard is good enough for real world civilian encounters. Perhaps then I do have a competitive mindset, but the competition is purely against myself

So back to what should I be doing at the range given these good suggestions from Alpha Sierra:

Maybe I set a realistic standard such as fast draw to initial shot at 10 yards, everything in an 8" group, two hand, strong hand only, weak hand only. And once I establish I can do that (Which I currently can, it's not that hard), I then can "play" at longer ranges with trying to make tight groups at 25 yards? Right now I'm shooting at 25, seeing large groups, and bringing the target in a bit to push it out slowly to 25.

I'll check out some of the material linked earlier in this post later this week.

You've used terms like "pretty quickly" and "fast" but what do they mean? Do you have a shot timer? If you don't, I suggest you buy one as well as the books I recommended. Without it, we're just guessing at what is slow, what's fast, and what improvement looks like.

I really strongly suggest you buy a timer and the books I mentioned and not think about the drills in them as being "competition" drills. While they are that, almost all of them also drive home essential skills that are necessary to be effective with a handgun in almost any context.

[powell556]

Make the best of current situation, but I strongly recommend finding some place outdoors where you can shoot with more flexibility even if you have to drive farther. Within the confines of an indoor shooting lane, hang the widest possible target and use that for transitions.

With my current situation I can go to an indoor range 5 to 7 times a month. I can go to an outdoor range 2 to 3 times a year. I will develop a plan to focus on what I can do dry at home, versus live on indoor range, versus live on the outdoor range and focus my outdoor range time on target transition and moving and shooting.

You've used terms like "pretty quickly" and "fast" but what do they mean? Do you have a shot timer? If you don't, I suggest you buy one as well as the books I recommended. Without it, we're just guessing at what is slow, what's fast, and what improvement looks like.

I really strongly suggest you buy a timer and the books I mentioned and not think about the drills in them as being "competition" drills. While they are that, almost all of them also drive home essential skills that are necessary to be effective with a handgun in almost any context.

Great advice! I definitely have been looking to buy a shot timer but all of the research points to "all shot timers suck" except for one new one that might suck less, but it's not available for purchase, only preorder on a 2 month delay since they make them as ordered, and it uses bluetooth/android for a lot of features, which I don't have.

Maybe I buy a CED 6000 used that was recommended highly on here, and reserve it for outdoor range use only. Since the main reason I read shot timers suck is they pick up ambient shooters on indoor ranges. If you have advice on a model, I am open to purchasing one for indoor range use as early as next week.

[GuanoLoco]

All shot timers have their limitations but they don’t all suck. Trying to practice in dry or live fire WITHOUT a timer sucks. EVERYTHING changes when you add a timer.

I had a CED7000 and would not recommend the CED. I have a Pocket Pro I and a Pocket Pro II. I prefer the II, if nothing else, you have a volume control that is useful for not disturbing others as much during dry fire nd the display can show more information when reviewing shot strings

[powell556]

All shot timers have their limitations but they don’t all suck. Trying to practice in dry or live fire WITHOUT a timer sucks. EVERYTHING changes when you add a timer.

I had a CED7000 and would not recommend the CED. I have a Pocket Pro I and a Pocket Pro II. I prefer the II, if nothing else, you have a volume control that is useful for not disturbing others as much during dry fire nd the display can show more information when reviewing shot strings

Do shot timers work during dry fire? I think I've seen some people using it for that, but wasn't sure how well it works or if all of them do it? I assume the timer is stopping based on the sound of the dry trigger press "click" if it does work during it?

I would like to time how long it takes to get holster out and first trigger press, so if I can use a shot timer for that, it might be worth it just for that one thing, even if it doesn't work (well) at indoor ranges.