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Thread: something, something SPEED; something something ACCURACY

  1. #11
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    I was able to have a conversation with @karmapolice this afternoon and here is what I think at this point:

    I was able to overcome poor trigger control in the past shooting Glocks because I had developed my grip enough to mask it. That’s how I could lock in one presentation and bang out a 2.5 sec Bill Drill. About 50% would be clean and of course that’s the part I remember.

    This go-round (beginning last October) I began to work hard on trigger control. This time I’m getting it right (I propose my success with my wife’s P239 DAO, in addition to the Glock and Beretta as evidence). The trick is I’ve changed holsters (OWB Bladetech style due to easy on/off during lunch breaks in work clothes), and changed guns (Beretta 92), so different grip, and different trigger. I’ve had the Beretta holster for about 2 weeks now, so aquiring grip and drawing with it are still fairly new.

    Often my first hit is good (even if slow), and it’s the subsequent shots that go off the rails. My hypothesis is that I’m subconsciously defaulting to the grip and rip style that used to (sort of) work with the Glock, but doesn’t work with the Beretta because grip and recoil impulse are different (same thought about pre-ignition flinch to mitigate recoil as I’ve ingrained to do with the Glock).

    The solution is probably to learn to prep and press the trigger more quickly while maintaining a clean press. Spread is mostly vertical, not lateral, so that’s good, but still grip could probably use some work as well.

    In dryfire I can work with a low par to force me to get the gun out and get on the trigger quick, but watching the front sight to make sure the trigger breaks cleanly.
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  2. #12
    Side note on splits. JJ said when he was practicing with Eric Grauffel, just before placing second in the world shoot, he was shooting Bill drills in 1.97 with his open gun, wide open splits were at best .17-.18 with his open gun, and he almost never shoots a split less than .20 in a match. He said Max M shoots so fast it scares him, and he tries not to watch him shoot. Despite his slow splits, he just won the Open Nationals with the greatest margin in USPSA history. Of course, he shoots a crazy percentage of Alphas.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clobbersaurus View Post
    Keep it simple. To improve Bill drills you need to improve draw and split speed.

    1) Work on draws in dry fire, religiously, and don’t stop until you can repeat .6 at will.

    2) Doubles drill at three yards. When you can keep your splits at or under .18 and your groups the size of a soup can lid, move the target back a yard. Keep at it until you can do it at 7 yards.

    3) Shoot Bills in every live fire session. But only enough to conifrm progression. IMO Bill drills are a test, not training.

    You will improve if you put in the work on the above points.
    I like this. It’s a literal (as opposed to theoretical) path to follow. Thanks!
    Food Court Apprentice
    Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    I was able to have a conversation with @karmapolice this afternoon and here is what I think at this point:

    I was able to overcome poor trigger control in the past shooting Glocks because I had developed my grip enough to mask it. That’s how I could lock in one presentation and bang out a 2.5 sec Bill Drill. About 50% would be clean and of course that’s the part I remember.

    This go-round (beginning last October) I began to work hard on trigger control. This time I’m getting it right (I propose my success with my wife’s P239 DAO, in addition to the Glock and Beretta as evidence). The trick is I’ve changed holsters (OWB Bladetech style due to easy on/off during lunch breaks in work clothes), and changed guns (Beretta 92), so different grip, and different trigger. I’ve had the Beretta holster for about 2 weeks now, so aquiring grip and drawing with it are still fairly new.

    Often my first hit is good (even if slow), and it’s the subsequent shots that go off the rails. My hypothesis is that I’m subconsciously defaulting to the grip and rip style that used to (sort of) work with the Glock, but doesn’t work with the Beretta because grip and recoil impulse are different (same thought about pre-ignition flinch to mitigate recoil as I’ve ingrained to do with the Glock).

    The solution is probably to learn to prep and press the trigger more quickly while maintaining a clean press. Spread is mostly vertical, not lateral, so that’s good, but still grip could probably use some work as well.

    In dryfire I can work with a low par to force me to get the gun out and get on the trigger quick, but watching the front sight to make sure the trigger breaks cleanly.
    Frankly, you may be spending too much of your time shooting slow fire B8 drills, which you already are good at, when you need to increase the percentage of your practice working the trigger quickly. Control the prep and press so you only break the shot when intend to fire the shot.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter MGW's Avatar
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    ASH556, what is your definition of fast?

  6. #16
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreggW View Post
    ASH556, what is your definition of fast?
    It depends on what’s going on, but for the sake of this discussion: a FAST coin or Turbo Pin level of speed.
    Food Court Apprentice
    Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer

  7. #17
    Site Supporter taadski's Avatar
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    Kinda generic stuff, but a different world class shooter’s perspective on exactly you question...

    Last edited by taadski; 03-09-2019 at 12:32 PM.

  8. #18
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    For an extremely long time I could not conceptualize a sub 2 sec bill drill.

    I forget who, but it was suggested to me to dry fire bill drills, then to dump a bill drill into a berm until I was sub 2 sec, then it would only be a matter of cleaning up my ability to see the gun move that quickly.

    Once I broke a sub 2 second bill drill in dry fire, I needed a few weeks/few hundred rounds of practice to break a sub 2 second dumps into the berm.

    Once I could process the gun shooting that fast and recoiling that fast, it was on to shooting it at targets.

    That's where I'm at now. I'll sometimes hit a clean sub 2 second live fire drill from my game rig, but the bill drill, and some other drills I learned in a class with Gabe are my main practice drills.

    I suspect keeping practice simple as possible while running the gamut of skillsets you'll need is important.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  9. #19
    David S.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASH556 View Post
    It depends on what’s going on, but for the sake of this discussion: a FAST coin or Turbo Pin level of speed.
    What do you split times look like? I think consistency of split times is the best measure of a shooters potential to shoot faster.

    If you film a high level shooter (as opposed to a one trick pony that’s just done endless repetition) and have him shoot one of these drill at speed and shoot it at a moderate pace, when the films are played at the same speed they will look very similar. There's a pattern or rhythm to their shooting that doesn't change with the speed that they are firing at. They are executing their fundamentals at different speeds. The basis of competence at speed is consistent execution of fundamentals.

    Don't worry about how fast you shoot drills, that's a fools errand. Drills are an assessment of skills, not a skill in itself. Plenty of folks work a drill until they shoot it fast and they are still at the same skill level.

    What you do is not nearly as important as being mentally deliberate in doing it the same way, every single time. Even if you’re doing it “wrong” you can identify that and change it.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

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