something, something SPEED; something something ACCURACY

[ASH556]

I need a bit of help here from you high level shooters. I don't think this is the kind of thing you go to an open enrollment class to learn. I think maybe this needs to be one of those coach's eye type things, but I'll start here and hopefully y'all can point me in the right direction.

I'm to the point where my accuracy is pretty good and consistent as long as there's no time constraint. My 25yd B8's are mid-90's or better on-demand, Averaging 3.5" groups. (example):



I shot dot torture at 7yds today. I only had 47 rounds left on me, so I left 3 shots out of the #1 (5 slow fire) and I shot 45/47. So again, not perfect, but respectable:



But when I try to turn on the speed and shoot under time the wheels completely fall off.

I tried to shoot Gabe's test yesterday. No concealment, just my Beretta from an OWB holster and sucked ass. Like, dropped 3/6 shots on both Bill runs and even then the times weren't that fast.




Then today I shot the GM test in DOTW and sucked that up pretty good too.

The problem is I don't really know where/how to begin increasing speed while maintaining accuracy other than to run until the wheels fall off and try to slow it down. That's what we did in Gabe's class. However, since Gabe's class my accuracy has increased (like ability to shoot small groups slowfire), but I can't seem to maintain it at speed. Am I falling apart on trigger control at speed? Am I not seeing the sights? Grip?

How do I diagnose which thing it is and what are some ways to progressively improve without going all the way back into "Safe, 100% hits, but slow AF" mode?

[scw2]

Do you know what is causing your problems shooting dots at that distance? In the context of Garcia dots, the key things I think one would want to focus on trigger press at speed, making sure grip allows for consistent tracking of the sights/dot and consistent return to the same place, and general recoil management. If working from the holster, obviously speed and consistency on the draw matters a ton too. Perhaps analyze and work on those skills individually, and come back to the dots to see how it all fits together, then repeat as needed.

As far as working with dots, one thing may be to start at a closer distance, then make sure you can get 1 shot under par consistently, then 2, 3, etc until you can get 6 dots. When the wheels fall off, see which of the above is the main issue.

Hoping some better shooters will come on here and provide advice, but the things that initially come to mind. Note I cannot clean Garcia dots so I'm not quite at the level many on this forum are, so you're getting what you paid for with my opinions...

[rjohnson4405]

I would find ways to break the process down into smaller parts and diagnose/improve those specific parts. It's hard to figure out what's wrong and if there are small problems with grip, sight picture, and trigger they can all add up to bigger problems. This is also how I practice "most" of the mechanics of a draw at a range where I can't draw. I start each step at a slow pace and build up slowly, add par times, etc.

1. Get an ideal grip, put the gun on target and a good sight picture, then concentrate on just pulling the trigger. If that is a struggle, stay there and continue to work JUST your trigger pull at speed. You can take as long as needed to get a good grip and sight picture but the trigger pull is the part done at a faster speed.

2. Once you feel comfortable with that, bring the gun back into your compressed ready. Keep an ideal grip, push out, find the sights and work the trigger. IF your good trigger manipulation from above continues, you are really working on transitioning your eyes to a good front sight focus. Start with a super slow press out and speed it up/add par times as you go. Call your shots as well as possible.

3. I break down grip into two pieces. First I'll be in compressed ready with only my strong hand on the gun, bring the hands together (meaning work the weak hand grip ONLY at speed) press out and shoot.

4. Then I would work from a holster to try and put it all together. If the wheels fall off at any point either continue to work there or find other ways to "isolate" the problem.

Speed for me (relative, sub 2 sec draws from concealment to 8 inch steal at 7 yards) came to me when I really figured out to run each part of the draw at the fastest speed I reliably could. My hand movement to the concealment garment and gun are very fast, I slow a little to get a perfect grip, it comes out of the holster and compressed ready full speed again, I bring my hands together quickly but slow a second to get a good support hand grip, and press out at my "fastest reliable" press out speed for the size of the target.

Trying to run everything super fast caused too many issues and inconsistencies, running everything at the same speed just ends up being slow as I run everything at the pace of my slowest part of the draw.

I had heard this talked about for a long time but I never really pushed to create it. Some parts of your draw should like fast forward and some slow motion. Or at least that's what has worked FOR ME.

[GJM]

Here is some wisdom from JJ Racaza. Thee are two types of targets — control and attack. Attack targets you shoot as aggressively as you can, and control targets are shot by doing what you need with sights and trigger without regard to time. Let me repeat that, shoot control targets without regard to time. Trying to shoot control targets to a certain time results in bad things, so don’t do it. Taking the monkey of time off your back will allow you to focus on sights and trigger, and the more of sights and trigger you do, the more efficient you will be at it. Drills like Stoeger’s shooting pairs at varying distance will teach you how much sights and trigger you need for a particular size and distance target.

[taadski]

To borrow George’s terminology, it seems like you’ve got the “control target” elements pretty established. And that the wheels fall off in “attack target” mode. You obviously have the ability to hit what you’re shooting at. Spending tons of time in control mode continuing down that road isn’t going to build your speed.

A big part of being able to self diagnose your shooting is the vision element; learning to start to see what the gun is doing at speed. From one accuracy weenie to another, that means you’re going to have to allow yourself the latitude to miss. Working in the gray at the edge of your visual ability IN TRAINING is the route to getting faster.

Try the old standby drill of shooting strings into the berm as fast as you can pull the trigger with NO target. The only goal being watching the front sight lift and return. It can be a mind opening exercise re what you can actually see at that pace. And, again, after you see it (what the gun is doing) you can start to evaluate what you need to do to fix it.

I actually like dry fire bill drills a lot too. Same as above, work on pulling the trigger as fast as you can, while being in observation mode. You might be surprised at how much you can disturb the gun simply by pressing and resetting the trigger at full speed. And how much grip, body tension, anticipation can be present even dry. There’s a lot of learning that can be done that can carry directly over to live fire.

And +1 for Ben’s doubles drill. It’s, in effect, a two round version of what I’m talking about. Set the speed to MAX and then whittle and refine your mechanics such that both shots are landing on top of each other. The only caveat I’d add is that you ensure you’re trying to see the deviations and imperfections in the gun as they happen and not just rely on the holes in the paper for confirmation.

[RevolverRob]

I agree with the thoughts on atomizing each task and motion. And breaking each of them down.

The question I’d ask you is - where do you think the wheels are coming off?

In breaking each section of your draw and sight alignment, where is it that the wheels come off?

If I had to spitball into the air, the most common issues I’ve experienced and seen are:

1) rushing the draw stroke, such that the primary grip is so sub-optimal sight alignment becomes an issue.
2) rushing the shot by beginning the trigger press during the push out.

The latter problem can explain why accuracy slow is fine and accuracy fast isn’t.

One thing to try is to set your timer and do dry draws and trigger presses. Do 15 or 20 in a row, then do a draw, but don’t press. If you find the trigger half pressed, or you press it wheb you’re not supposed to? You’re rushing the shot.

In those situations, back to basics. I do A LOT of shoot-no shoot dry drills, because I want to be able to get on and off the gas at will. Controlling that, frees my brain up to process what the front sight is doing.

[Alpha Sierra]

I would throw your question in benos too......

[LSP552]

Visual patience is important. It becomes more important at targets decrease in size or get farther away. The sights really are the gun’s gas peddle.

I really like George and Taadski’s comments!

[GJM]

Both JJ and Pete Rensing said to me in classes in the last month, sights and aiming are overrated, trigger control is where all the money is. They also said that you bring the technical skills you have, and your technical skills are not going to improve because you try harder. Learn to press the trigger faster and you will be able to shoot faster. Per JJ, prepping faster is the key to pressing the trigger faster.

[Clobbersaurus]

Keep it simple. To improve Bill drills you need to improve draw and split speed.

1) Work on draws in dry fire, religiously, and don’t stop until you can repeat .6 at will.

2) Doubles drill at three yards. When you can keep your splits at or under .18 and your groups the size of a soup can lid, move the target back a yard. Keep at it until you can do it at 7 yards.

3) Shoot Bills in every live fire session. But only enough to conifrm progression. IMO Bill drills are a test, not training.

You will improve if you put in the work on the above points.