Disguising the Draw

[0ddl0t]

Cooper wrote that fighting back is a social duty. If I determined that surrendering a wallet would end the confrontation, then I would hand it over.

I too would probably comply for all the reasons you mentioned, but from a game theory perspective in the comforts of an ivory tower I think Cooper is probably right.

Fighting back probably has a larger negative expected outcome for you as an individual (best case: you keep your wallet and bad guy surrenders withiut a shot being fired. Other outcomes in the probability distribution include you dying over a wallet and you spending 5 years in court for defending yourself). But law abiding citizens in a society where its members fight back probably are collectively less likely to be victimized.

It reminds me a bit of speed/traffic enforcement - yes, individually, there are probably more serious crimes that a trained officer could be working, but it doesn't take many motor officers writing tickets to dramatically improve traffic safety in a town.

Unfortunately many citizens, especially the cultured elite, consider fighting back to be irresponsible vigilantism. "Leave law enforcement to the cops," they say. Of course, these are the same people who are taught that it shows poor manners to hand your dirty dish to the wait staff so they won't have to reach across a table...

[BehindBlueI's]

Pulling the trigger will cost plenty.

My state has legislation proposed that hopes to address this. There's already protections against criminal cases for justified use of a firearm in defense of self or others. A similar protection against civil suits is working its way through the process at the moment. The springboard was a woman who got sued for shooting someone off of a cop during a fight. Obviously justified criminally, got sued civil side. The suit got a ton of attention and has since been dropped, but hopefully the legislation will make it the last time.

[Medusa]

I appreciate the benefit of her experience. Thank you. my feeling, I’m not a dd cup, just a c, don’t carry tiny weapons, and I believe it’d be super uncomfortable and fail to conceal.

We bought a bra holster to try with a P32. Awkward is the best word I can think of for what the whole process looks like in person. And not really concealing a gun that tiny on a reasonably fit woman with DD cups makes me wonder how it could really work for anybody. There should have been enough real estate for it to work, if it was going to, but it just made everything like odd, unbalanced, and unnatural.

She didn’t talk about it being uncomfortable, though.

[Hambo]

Cooper wrote that fighting back is a social duty. If I determined that surrendering a wallet would end the confrontation, then I would hand it over. Pulling the trigger will cost plenty.

There is a defense here against immunity if someone is committing a forcible felony.

I think if you're going to plan give it up, you probably shouldn't carry a gun. Armed robbery today often includes a pat down, and if they find a gun who knows what their next action will be.

[Alpha Sierra]

My state has legislation proposed that hopes to address this. There's already protections against criminal cases for justified use of a firearm in defense of self or others. A similar protection against civil suits is working its way through the process at the moment. The springboard was a woman who got sued for shooting someone off of a cop during a fight. Obviously justified criminally, got sued civil side. The suit got a ton of attention and has since been dropped, but hopefully the legislation will make it the last time.

Ugh that sucks. Us next door to the east took care of that a few years back. Here a good shoot on the criminal side gives you a shield against civil liability.

[blues]

NC also has protections in place to indemnify an individual from civil liability if it is determined that one acted in defense of self or others.

[willie]

There is a defense here against immunity if someone is committing a forcible felony.

I think if you're going to plan give it up, you probably shouldn't carry a gun. Armed robbery today often includes a pat down, and if they find a gun who knows what their next action will be.

I put pat downs in the same category as beating, cutting, or shooting. No touching allowed.

[JHC]

This is the topic that tempts me to actually employ a BUG. One at 3:30, one AIWB. Coming or going. Which if I was entering a high threat situation I could see actually doing. Have trialed it a few times.

However during such trials it was a standard frame Glock IWB and a J frame or G43 AIWB. It was doable but I've have to really feel the need cause it's a pantload.


On the other hand, yesterday I wore a 43 AIWB (Dale Fricke Jonathan) and a 43X IWB in a FIST #1 clip. Sat around, played with a couple of dogs with a lot of crouching and bending and an hour plus long drive. It was a piece of cake. Thin guns in both locations made a big difference in comfort vs the thick gun in one and anything at the other.

[powell556]

Interesting thread so far. A few comments/questions:

Several people in this thread mentioned blading away from the attacker to disguise your draw. I believe Cecil and Craig and Larry train not to blade your body while drawing because you put yourself in a poor position from a grappling standpoint. You always want your hips facing the other person. My concern would be if you blade your body and draw and the attacker decides to rush you, your hips won't be in a good position to defend.

BehindBlueI's has already mentioned that the Shivworks Collective does not an unentangled draw at close ranges. Should we define the distance necessary where the disguised gun draw makes sense? If the attacker is right up on you, muzzle pressed in your abdomen, I can't imagine it would be appropriate to draw your gun and try to shoot, without first trying to control the muzzle of the attacker's gun.

Now let's pull back 6 inches. Still too close for the covert draw.

At "close" distances, you need to tie up first with the attacker to control their weapon to divert it away from you and to control their hands to keep them from being able to disarm you as you draw your own weapon. There's not going to be a covert draw during this because there's nothing covert about the underhook and wrist control you go for.

We should define at what distance it's strategically acceptable to perform a covert draw because that might change how we employ it.

We should also consider a covert draw that puts the gun in our hands before the encounter even begins. Assuming we have good situational awareness, can we get into a position where at least our hand is on the gun or where the gun is in our hand in a firing group while concealed from view before the encounter begins?

The immedate option that comes to mind is drawing the gun and holding it behind your leg, so it's hidden from view from the front. I can see that being problematic from a strategic standpoint because if the attacker closes in on you to a few feet, then you have the same problems of unentangled weapon retention as you did if you didn't start with your gun in your hand. It would also be problematic if anyone from behind you sees the gun, now you're brandishing a weapon.

Perhaps there is a way to carry something like a plastic grocery bag in your pocket, and given enough situational awareness, you draw your gun and conceal it inside the bag. Ideally a J-frame revolver so the bag won't interfere with the operation of the gun (the bag might interfere with slide reciprocation on a semi auto). And you effectively have the gun already in hand, finger off trigger, pointed directly at the potential threat, with a grocery bag over it. Maybe not a grocery bag exactly, but something that could be on your person that doesn't "ask" too much of you (nothing too bulky or heavy).

[JHC]

Interesting thread so far. A few comments/questions:

Several people in this thread mentioned blading away from the attacker to disguise your draw. I believe Cecil and Craig and Larry train not to blade your body while drawing because you put yourself in a poor position from a grappling standpoint. You always want your hips facing the other person. My concern would be if you blade your body and draw and the attacker decides to rush you, your hips won't be in a good position to defend.

BehindBlueI's has already mentioned that the Shivworks Collective does not an unentangled draw at close ranges. Should we define the distance necessary where the disguised gun draw makes sense? If the attacker is right up on you, muzzle pressed in your abdomen, I can't imagine it would be appropriate to draw your gun and try to shoot, without first trying to control the muzzle of the attacker's gun.

Now let's pull back 6 inches. Still too close for the covert draw.

At "close" distances, you need to tie up first with the attacker to control their weapon to divert it away from you and to control their hands to keep them from being able to disarm you as you draw your own weapon. There's not going to be a covert draw during this because there's nothing covert about the underhook and wrist control you go for.

We should define at what distance it's strategically acceptable to perform a covert draw because that might change how we employ it.

We should also consider a covert draw that puts the gun in our hands before the encounter even begins. Assuming we have good situational awareness, can we get into a position where at least our hand is on the gun or where the gun is in our hand in a firing group while concealed from view before the encounter begins?

The immedate option that comes to mind is drawing the gun and holding it behind your leg, so it's hidden from view from the front. I can see that being problematic from a strategic standpoint because if the attacker closes in on you to a few feet, then you have the same problems of unentangled weapon retention as you did if you didn't start with your gun in your hand. It would also be problematic if anyone from behind you sees the gun, now you're brandishing a weapon.

Perhaps there is a way to carry something like a plastic grocery bag in your pocket, and given enough situational awareness, you draw your gun and conceal it inside the bag. Ideally a J-frame revolver so the bag won't interfere with the operation of the gun (the bag might interfere with slide reciprocation on a semi auto). And you effectively have the gun already in hand, finger off trigger, pointed directly at the potential threat, with a grocery bag over it. Maybe not a grocery bag exactly, but something that could be on your person that doesn't "ask" too much of you (nothing too bulky or heavy).

Those two questions/observations are related. The blading wouldn't be part of an attempt at an entangled draw. That's too close.