Red Dots, "way of the dinosaur"

[MolonLabe416]

I run a red dot on my 11.5 SBR 5.56 and my 9” pistol 300 BO. I use LPVs for my other ARs.

[karmapolice]

So just some musing from an unimportant persons on LPVO vs Red Dot. First I agree with @ASH556 and @cs_tactical on what they said on the first page. I've predominantly been a red dot guy and ran an NXS 1-4 with a FC3G reticle a couple years ago but went back to a red dot. I have now picked up a Nightforce NX8 capped elevastion and windage LE/MIL model with MIL reticle and adjustments and have it in a 1.93" Geissele mount. So the main advantage of an LPVO is magnification for positive ID for me and some shorter range tighter shots I might have to take, Chuck Pressburg has a decent video on this where he talks about the 47 yard shot into a bad guys left eye. The main thing Pressburg talks about is that for a patrol rifle having an LPVO you need to vet it on the 99.9" stuff which is what you would traditionally see a red dot shine at. If the optic you run doesn't have a clear and usable enough 1x that's a problem.

So for me here is a comparison (RDS vs LPVO) of times and results on Kevin B's rifle standards I use regularly plus 100 yard groups from the same rifle with RDS & NX8.

This I shot yesterday after confirming zero with the NX8,I have not shot rifle as much lately compared to the RDS one where I had been shooting more regularly so to me the times are more a reflection on that vs the optic. For it to be a go it has to be par or under and an a zone hit on USPSA target.

NX8 Results from 03/04/2019 Times Go/No Go
1 from the ready 1 second par time x2- 0.89/0.73 GO/GO
2 from the ready 1.25 second par time x2 - 1.05/1.13 GO/GO
2 rounds on 2 targets (L-R then R-L) 2.0 second par x2- 1.91/1.90 GO/GO
1 round rifle transition to pistol 1 round 3 second par x2 - 2.76/2.66 GO/GO
1 round rifle bolt lock reload 1 round 4.5 second par x2- 4.13/4.40 GO/GO (crappy reloads, time was not a reflection of the optic)
Rhythm Drill 6 rounds 3 second par all splits with in .05 x2- 2.41/2.28 GO/GO
5 rounds from ready standing 25 yards 8 second par x2- 3.98/3.76 GO/GO
5 rounds standing to kneeling 50 yards 10 second par x2- 5.52/6.69 NO GO (2 charlies)/ GO (shot these both on 4x from standing (did not kneel) and first run I pushed two out into the C zone)


Aimpoint T1 in 1.93" mount Results from 04/11/2018 Times Go/No Go
1 from the ready 1 second par time x2- 0.52/0.78 GO/GO
2 from the ready 1.25 second par time x2 - 0.82/0.87 GO/GO
2 rounds on 2 targets (L-R then R-L) 2.0 second par x2- 1.77/1.69 GO/GO
1 round rifle transition to pistol 1 round 3 second par x2 - 2.32/2.17 GO/GO
1 round rifle bolt lock reload 1 round 4.5 second par x2- 3.71/3.23 GO/GO
Rhythm Drill 6 rounds 3 second par all splits with in .05 x2- 1.70/1.61 GO/GO
5 rounds from ready standing 25 yards 8 second par x2- 4.56/3.94 GO/GO
5 rounds standing to kneeling 50 yards 10 second par x2- 6.13/8.28 GO/GO

NX8 100 yard group from 03/04/2019 100 yards with Speer Gold Dot 62 grain off a bag on a bench. 1.5" group


Aimpoint T1 100 yard group from 02/27/2019 100 yards with Speer Gold Dot 62 grain off a bag on a bench on B8


This not an end all be all review or anything but a quick comparison. I will continue to see how the NX8 does but the big thing to me is I was able to pass the standards with one flub (where I usually mess up at 50 yards because I shoot standing and too fast sometimes). It works because the standards don't change based off of equipment.

[JHC]

Interesting video on LPVO. Kyle Defoor calls them "the way of the dinosaur" at about 14:02. He also calls the reluctance to change similar to guys reluctance to change from Iron Sights to Red dots back in the 90s and early 2000s.


Video is worth a watch. I have been going back and forth between what I want of my carbine personally and thought a discussion could be insightful and fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzPlsr5vjaM

I don't have a resume of experience to say definitively one way or the other, but from a very small sample of a few shooters, I've long believed what KD said; that there really isn't a meaningful speed penalty at CQB distance with a 1X scope. I just keep my mouth shut about it because who the fuck am I eh?


But in addition to KD's argument there is the sport of 3 gunning. What are they running to perform the best at any range? Competition has often led the way.


And also, something I can see with my own eyes is target ID. That is not just an issue at 400m. That can very easily be an issue at ranges much shorter based on environment, lighting, or chaos.


If I'm voting with my own cash, Defoor is correct for any GP application. Special things are special of course.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As Pat Rogers used to say on a daily basis, "the mission drives the gear train." That's still true and therefore, most real users of carbines are well served with a red dot optic. Those who wish to play Walter Mitty and imagine themselves the new iteration of Vasily Zaitsev or Chris Kyle, etc. will want magnification and all that brings to the table. Some of that is good and some is bad...it depends on your problem and mission. Oh and I forgot, Zaitsev did lots of his killing with iron sights, as did a Finn in the 1939 war with the Soviets in which he killed several dozen.

[ralph]

Best way to deal with the Communists on U.S. soil today is to simply vote them out of office. :-)

Until they become the majority..then you ain't voting on shit anymore, comrade!

The ballot box worked in 2016..barely.. will it work again in 2020? 2024? We're gonna find out, I'm not convinced we have that much time left..
I watchedthe Defoor vid and came away with mixed feelings.. I have a RDS on one rifle, and another with leupold AR Mod 1 1-4 var with firedot-g spr. I do 200yd shots with the rds pretty easy, considering I'm 64, with the scope (or whatever you want to call it) I've done 400 on steel without alot of drama too, IMO, both have their places I would'nt feel too undergunned with the red dot, they've been around along time and they work.. so does the scope, I guess it boils down to the terrain around where you'll be using the rifle..where I live in S.E. Ohio, you can have thick woods, and 2 miles away you could stumble across a farm, with wide open fields offering shot probably over 800yds..

[Mjolnir]

Until they become the majority..
When they decide the consititution is no longer relevant, and just an old peice of paper written by white slave holders.
When they decide ALL private property is now STATE OWNED, and YOU the former owner/s are now trespassing.
When they decide the bill of rights means nothing.
When they decide that the enemy of the state is, any male (especially white) who believes in God, freedom, the concept of private property rights, the bill of rights, and will not accept their twisted,perveted ideals.

As long as we can vote the out fine, but, they day's gonna come when we can't, thanks to the 24/7 propaganda media we have, along with scores of commie professors/administration at collages, who gleefully push socialism, communism, at every conciveable level, at every opportunity, as the greatest thing since sliced bread. And, sadly, alot of the students,(not all, thank God) are happily lapping it up
When they get in office this time, they're gonna make damn sure they stay in office, and that means getting rid of the opposition, just like they've done everywhere they've taken over before.. round them up, off to a gulag, or into a ditch alongside the road with a bullet in the back of the head.

People better wake up soon, it seems with every election cycle more and more or these "democratic socalist" are getting elected, at state levels and at local levels, no matter what cutsie name they call themselves this week, socialist=communist. IMO, the only "good" commie is a dead one. Communism is a cancer, that unless swiftly dealt with will bleed it's host dry, leaving nothing but death, and distruction in it's wake, before moving on to it's next victum..

The ballot box worked in 2016..barely.. will it work again in 2020? 2024? We're gonna find out, I'm not convinced we have that much time left..

Preach, brother!

Few really “hear” you, though.


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[ralph]

Preach, brother!

Few really “hear” you, though.


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Thank you! I've taken that post down, mainly because I felt I had gotten way,way, too far off topic.. And the subject at hand here, wasn't the right place for it. Hopefully, some will see it here.. Hopefully, it might get someone to stop and think. If it does then I've planted a seed, and if it takes off, then I've done my job..

[ralph]

Sorry double post

[ralph]

Sorry another double post..that's it, I give up..

[ST911]

You want to talk about dinosaur? I'm probably about one of the only guys left who still likes the old Leupold CQT.

No, you're not. And there are still a bunch of them around doing work.

I'd like to see Leupold come out with a "Gen 2" CQT that addresses the battery and brightness issues but keeps the overall good stuff about the scope. Maybe bump it up to 4x while they're at it and/or drop a little weight off the product. But I don't think the market, as a whole, wants this type of product. Not enough max magnification I'm afraid...

Yes. Shorter, lighter, 1-4x, better mount. I'd try one.