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Thread: Red Dots, "way of the dinosaur"

  1. #1

    Red Dots, "way of the dinosaur"

    Interesting video on LPVO. Kyle Defoor calls them "the way of the dinosaur" at about 14:02. He also calls the reluctance to change similar to guys reluctance to change from Iron Sights to Red dots back in the 90s and early 2000s.


    Video is worth a watch. I have been going back and forth between what I want of my carbine personally and thought a discussion could be insightful and fun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzPlsr5vjaM
    Last edited by breakingtime91; 03-04-2019 at 10:17 AM.

  2. #2
    As with anything, I think the answer is it depends. Ive got a few LPVOs and also a few Aimpoints/Eotechs on my carbines. I live in SE NC and the furthest range I have easy access to is 200Y. Most of my rifle shooting/drills are inside 100Y. If I lived out west with more open terrain I think Id have more LVPOs as opposed to red dots/holo sights. My go-to HD AR wears an Aimpoint T2 and it stays on 24/7/365. If I know Im going to be shooting longer ranges or want magnification for ease of target PID Ill grab one of my carbines with a LVPO.

    With all of that rambling out of the way...if I had to narrow down my ARs to one gun, it would be a 14.5-16 middy wearing a Vortex Razor Gen 2 with offset MBUS Pros as backups.
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  3. #3
    S.L.O.W. ASH556's Avatar
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    I'm in the "it depends" camp. Yeah, I have an NX8 on my 14.5" gun and I like it a lot. I also have a T1 on my 10.3 and there are situations where the Aimpoint still wins. Without getting too specific:
    -odd positions
    -searching "in" or "through" the optic
    -getting into and out of multiple positions

    If all I did was clear structures (like your average home) I would still want the Aimpoint.

    The high end LPVO's (Kahles, Razor, Nightforce) can look very much like an Aimpoint at the range when you're standing. It's the moving and imperfect position stuff that makes a difference.
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  4. #4
    Supporting Business CS Tactical's Avatar
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    I'm also in the "it depends" camp and run a T2 (also on 24/7/365) on my defensive carbine. I have access and play with all the latest and greatest optics and LPVO's are the future but they do not completely replace Aimpoints yet.
    I doubt they will completely for awhile as there are compromises on both ends.
    Last edited by CS Tactical; 03-04-2019 at 01:37 PM.
    CS Tactical
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CS Tactical View Post
    I'm also in the "it depends" camp and run a T2 (also on 24/7/365) on my defensive carbine. I have access and play with all the latest and greatest optics and LPVO's are the future but they do not completely replace Aimpoints yet.
    I doubt they will completely for awhile as there are compromises on both ends.
    This is where I am at and what I think most here are saying. I am planning on setting up a light weight BCM with an easy and intuitive red dot set up. Something that I can hand to a new shooter and have them put the reticle and pull the trigger without worry about magnification, hold over line, etc.

  6. #6
    A limiting factor for many LPVOs is dot/reticle brightness. Some are "daylight" bright while others are not. Also, an issue I have with many (FFP) optics is the reticle itself. On 1x many reticles are too fine to really be as quick as a good dot. On the other end of the magnification scale, these reticles can be big and clunky and cover too much of the target.

    Really the big minus to the red dot is lack of target verification at distances beyond about 200 yards. Otherwise, dots are generally faster (less critical with eye relief and head position).

    So I'll put myself into the "it depends" category as well.

    EDIT: I'll have to watch the video to see if Mr Defoor mentions any of this stuff.

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    Last edited by Tokarev; 03-04-2019 at 03:48 PM.

  7. #7
    Supporting Business CS Tactical's Avatar
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    I'll also add that you will pay 2-4 times as much for a quality red dot to a quality LPVO. My favorite LPVO that won't get me divorced is a Vortex Razor Gen II 1-6 Enhanced with the JM-1, and I'm a fan of the Nightforce offerings as well depending on application and budget.
    CS Tactical
    For the best pricing on Optics please PM or call 916.670.1103
    Dealer for Zero Compromise, Swarovski,Tangent Theta,
    Nightforce, Kahles, Vortex, XLR Industries and now turn key precision rifles!
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    Really the big minus to the red dot is lack of target verification at distances beyond about 200 yards.
    Because of where I live, I probably have a bigger chance of using a rifle against a threat than your average non-le/.mil person, but the idea that I'm going to have to target discriminate and engage at or beyond 200 yards starts getting us into Red Dawn fantasy land. The cost and weight penalty of a LPVO just doesn't make sense to me.

    I'm sure Defoor is making excellent points that are vitally relevant to someone's world, it just isn't mine.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
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    Defoor is one of the few instructors I still think has a remote clue, and I find myself agreeing with him 99% of the time, but not here. At least not for me.

    I see a lot of guys, many of whom have zero application for same, get caught up in "sniper" mode (or DM, or whatever you want to label it these days) when it comes to carbines. Frankly, I don't *care* about making precise hits at distances past where I can use the RDS.

    Therefore, I never did find the weight to be worth the trade-off in any LPV.

    As soon as they make an LPV that weighs the same as the T2, and costs the same as the Vortex Crossfire, I'm sold.

    I also have the experience of spending a year with iron sights, and not being a sniper, I learned alot about what you can actually do with them. Among other things, you can beat the shit out of a lot of LPV-shooting doods in carbine matches. Again, not being sniper.
    Last edited by rob_s; 03-04-2019 at 04:37 PM.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    Because of where I live, I probably have a bigger chance of using a rifle against a threat than your average non-le/.mil person, but the idea that I'm going to have to target discriminate and engage at or beyond 200 yards starts getting us into Red Dawn fantasy land. The cost and weight penalty of a LPVO just doesn't make sense to me.

    I'm sure Defoor is making excellent points that are vitally relevant to someone's world, it just isn't mine.
    I agree on RDO for defense, but with age and slowly degrading vision, even a 1-3 LPVO makes a HUGE difference for me, much less a quality 1-6 or 1-8. Will I ever need to use it outside of occasionally harvesting a deer with a 30-30 with 1x3? Unlikely.
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