Red Dots, "way of the dinosaur"

[Tokarev]

The FBI had, surprisingly enough, a Sig Romeo4T, which they said was their standard issue for agents,...

Customs and Border Protection is using the Romeo 4M (and now 4T) as well. In my area we have a couple hundred Ms and maybe 50 of the newer Ts issued.

Both have held up fine with the exception of a couple crushed battery compartment springs. The vendor says the spring gets crushed by over tightening the battery cap. Finger tight is good and shouldn't cause damage.

The only thing I've personally seen is a sort of "false dot" that can appear when shooting with the sun at a certain angle. The light coming into the rear of the optic will cause what appears to be a 2nd dot inside the tube. This can be somewhat confusing given the shooter's level of experience with the optic. That's with the M version and it might not happen with the new T model.

This brings up my 2nd complaint. The M sold for a bit less than $300 while the new T model is close to $400. Even though the T has a better mount and a little solar panel I think the Aimpoint PRO is probably the better optic for $400. I'm basing that on Aimpoint's established track record.



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[Default.mp3]

LPVOs and Magnifiers allow for a clear sight picture even in dim lighting.

The problem with magnifiers, when compared to LPVOs, is there is much worse light transmission, since the sight has to go through the RDS first, and then the magnifier. The new Aimpoint duty grade magnifiers have only a light transmission of 75% according to the spec sheet; I have no idea what an Aimpoint's might be, though I've heard that some of the Micros have fairly poor light transmission, which is why EOTechs were selected over them for SOCOM (due to the possibility of having to use the optics under NODs). So, low-light performance of a magnifier and RDS can be significantly worse than an LPVO, which is something @Steve f has talked about.

[Wake27]

The problem with magnifiers, when compared to LPVOs, is there is much worse light transmission, since the sight has to go through the RDS first, and then the magnifier. The new Aimpoint duty grade magnifiers have only a light transmission of 75% according to the spec sheet; I have no idea what an Aimpoint's might be, though I've heard that some of the Micros have fairly poor light transmission, which is why EOTechs were selected over them for SOCOM (due to the possibility of having to use the optics under NODs). So, low-light performance of a magnifier and RDS can be significantly worse than an LPVO, which is something @Steve f has talked about.

Chuck Pressburg recently released a video where he discussed the additional parallax issues of an RDS plus magnifier too.


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[HCM]

For most LE operations a red dot will fit the bill. “Way of the dinosaur”? Not so much.

This week I hosted a Carbine Instructor class offered by the FBI. Of all the LE Firearms Instructors there (12) two had LPVOs (Trijicon). Everyone else was running a dot. The FBI had, surprisingly enough, a Sig Romeo4T, which they said was their standard issue for agents, and the HRT guy was running a Micro. There were also two other Sig Romeo’s in attendance with a mix of Aimpoint and EOTech XPS. No other red dot product was present. No matter who used what speed came down to skill level. On the last day we ran a little man on man competition on distance. With all the fancy optics and variance between rifle manufacturers the winner was a guy running a M&P 15 with a PRO at 300 yards...I was actually the first person eliminated at 50 yards...go figure. We were shooting B/C zone IPSC steel.

As with everything in government cost is a huge factor. Not very many agencies will pony up enough cash to purchase a PRO ($400ish) much less a LPVO which costs much more.

ETA: LE here should reach out to their District FBI office for their Carbine Instructor class. Highly recommended.

Are you sure those were 4Ts and not 4Ms ? I was told that when SIG discontinued the 4M they offered the the 4T it was rejected.

Also not every FBI office offers firearms training though if they don’t, their training coordinator may be able get you into a class somewhere else if you are willing to travel.

[HCM]

Customs and Border Protection is using the Romeo 4M (and now 4T) as well. In my area we have a couple hundred Ms and maybe 50 of the newer Ts issued.

Both have held up fine with the exception of a couple crushed battery compartment springs. The vendor says the spring gets crushed by over tightening the battery cap. Finger tight is good and shouldn't cause damage.

The only thing I've personally seen is a sort of "false dot" that can appear when shooting with the sun at a certain angle. The light coming into the rear of the optic will cause what appears to be a 2nd dot inside the tube. This can be somewhat confusing given the shooter's level of experience with the optic. That's with the M version and it might not happen with the new T model.

This brings up my 2nd complaint. The M sold for a bit less than $300 while the new T model is close to $400. Even though the T has a better mount and a little solar panel I think the Aimpoint PRO is probably the better optic for $400. I'm basing that on Aimpoint's established track record.



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The Romeo 4Ms were originally over $400 like the 4Ts are now. The current lower price of the M’s reflect that it is a discontinued item.

[HCM]

I remember struggling with MK6 1-6 during a Nightfighter class. Even despite being set to 1, it wasn't as easy to acquire a sight picture when shooting around barricades. I switched to an upper with Aimpoint M2 for the next day and it was much easier/faster. The distances were generally 25-50 yards and in low light.
I also went "back full circle" to having a magnifier. It provides a little extra magnification when needed, but otherwise you are using an aimpoint. The last class at the end of last year, I had M4 with 3XC magnifier. During drills and running the scrambler (even when starting at 100 yards) the magnifier was flipped away and I was shooting red dot only. However, I didn't have to deal with target ID and we were shooting at exposed targets.
The one time I used the magnifier was during the zeroing where it helped tremendously.

IME the Mk6 1-6 is a great 2x to 6x optics but it is a poor performer at 1x compared to the Vortex Razor or Khalsa 1-6s.

[KeeFus]

Are you sure those were 4Ts and not 4Ms ? I was told that when SIG discontinued the 4M they offered the the 4T it was rejected.

Also not every FBI office offers firearms training though if they don’t, their training coordinator may be able get you into a class somewhere else if you are willing to travel.

Pretty sure they were the 4Ts. Solar panel atop the optic and IIRC that’s the model they mentioned. I’m definitely not a Sig anything fanboy so I could be wrong. Honestly, I was surprised it wasn’t an Aimpoint.

As to the training, I saw where a couple other PF members had attended the class last year and I reached out to them about how to locate the training. Simply call the office and ask...I then reached out to Charlotte and started the conversation. Took about a year due to logistics and calendar issues but I got it and was able to host it through the local community college (I’m a part-time Range Master there...we have a 400 yard Rifle range, pistol range, and a new shoot house). Good training and worth the wait.

[Backspin]

The problem with magnifiers, when compared to LPVOs, is there is much worse light transmission, since the sight has to go through the RDS first, and then the magnifier. The new Aimpoint duty grade magnifiers have only a light transmission of 75% according to the spec sheet; I have no idea what an Aimpoint's might be, though I've heard that some of the Micros have fairly poor light transmission, which is why EOTechs were selected over them for SOCOM (due to the possibility of having to use the optics under NODs). So, low-light performance of a magnifier and RDS can be significantly worse than an LPVO, which is something @Steve f has talked about.

I agree that LPVO clarity is better than RDS + Magnifier. Matter of fact, I’ve tried and moved away from an RDS magnifier on my personal gun. But if an agency doesn’t have an LPVO program, magnifiers are an option to give the RDS more versatility. Also, magnifiers arguably have a lower learning curve compared to an LPVO. When I said “clear sight picture” I meant the magnifier turned a very difficult shot (faded steel target at 60 yards in low light ) into a very possible shot.

[Tokarev]

The Romeo 4Ms were originally over $400 like the 4Ts are now. The current lower price of the M’s reflect that it is a discontinued item.

True although CBP has an optics contract with the 4M (and now the 4T) at the prices I mentioned.

The 4M is now down to $225-is through places like Optics Planet.

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[John Hearne]

Regarding FBI training, some states are better than others. Alabama does more firearms training than any other close by field office. Most of it is at Huntsville which has resonance air access.