Red Dots, "way of the dinosaur"

[Wake27]

At a recent vendor event, I told the Aimpoint salesman that he needs to bring an Aimpiont scope to market. Something combining Aimpoint battery life and Aimpoint brightness with a simple reticle and decent glass. I don't think it would have to be a 34mm tube and/or 6x or 8x power at the top end. 4x combined with Aimpoint's good qualities would probably be fine.

The old discontinued Leupold Prismatic had a focus adjustment. But that's because it was a system of lenses with an etched reticle as opposed to a tube that's sealed by glass with a projector inside that reflects a dot into the window.

There are companies now making red dots with holdovers. EOTech has had 2- and 4-dot reticles for years. SIG is making a 4-dot reticle for the Romeo 4T.

You should try a Razor. Battery life is far less relevant when you have an etched reticle.


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[Alpha Sierra]

You should try a Razor. Battery life is far less relevant when you have an etched reticle.

Another thing I love about my Steiner. It is Aimpoint bright (compared it lit side by side with an Aimpoint PRO and SIG Romeo5) but it doesn't need to be.

[NH Shooter]

Another thing I love about my Steiner. It is Aimpoint bright...

But does it have 50-trillion hours of battery life?

[Alpha Sierra]

But does it have 50-trillion hours of battery life?

Just 10 trillion, sorry

[Andy T]

I remember struggling with MK6 1-6 during a Nightfighter class. Even despite being set to 1, it wasn't as easy to acquire a sight picture when shooting around barricades. I switched to an upper with Aimpoint M2 for the next day and it was much easier/faster. The distances were generally 25-50 yards and in low light.
I also went "back full circle" to having a magnifier. It provides a little extra magnification when needed, but otherwise you are using an aimpoint. The last class at the end of last year, I had M4 with 3XC magnifier. During drills and running the scrambler (even when starting at 100 yards) the magnifier was flipped away and I was shooting red dot only. However, I didn't have to deal with target ID and we were shooting at exposed targets.
The one time I used the magnifier was during the zeroing where it helped tremendously.

[Andy T]

Too radical an idea or something that actually doesn't work? Poor marketing on Leupold's part? Maybe people think the DEVO only works in combination with the LCO.

Kyle Lamb seems to like the DEVO. Or he did. I don't know if he's still running one or not.

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If I remember correctly Kyle has a partnership with Leupold - keep that in mind. The only time I tried DEVO was at the 2018 shot show. At first glance, the eye relief was a bit off and it took time/practice getting picture - which is OK, since at 6X one shouldn't be rushing. DEVO should work with any red dot, although LCO has the best footprint. I am guessing being too weird/expensive is what made it less popular.

[Backspin]

While I was critical of LPVO as a pure fleet option for LE, I will say magnification provides a huge benefit in low light PID and distance shooting.

At my agency we run a low light course of fire for our basic rifle course. 12x12” Steel targets up to 60 yards away. On a dark range, a non-magnified red dot (EoTech or Aimpoint, doesn’t matter) washes out the distant target from the sight picture even when using a bright weapons light. In order to hit the 60 yards target with an RDS, students practically have to memorize where the target is and just hold their reticle over that spot. Basically a trick shot at that point and it takes most students forever to execute.

LPVOs and Magnifiers allow for a clear sight picture even in dim lighting. The efficiency of an LPVO vs red dot during that COF is dramatic.

[Tokarev]

While I was critical of LPVO as a pure fleet option for LE, I will say magnification provides a huge benefit in low light PID and distance shooting.

At my agency we run a low light course of fire for our basic rifle course. 12x12” Steel targets up to 60 yards away. On a dark range, a non-magnified red dot (EoTech or Aimpoint, doesn’t matter) washes out the distant target from the sight picture even when using a bright weapons light. In order to hit the 60 yards target with an RDS, students practically have to memorize where the target is and just hold their reticle over that spot. Basically a trick shot at that point and it takes most students forever to execute.

LPVOs and Magnifiers allow for a clear sight picture even in dim lighting. The efficiency of an LPVO vs red dot during that COF is dramatic.

Something we haven't discussed at all at this point is RDS vs LPV used in conjunction with night vision.

There are a number of clip-on or forward mounted NVDs that can be used with a conventional scope but these are dedicated weapon accessories and really can't be used independently for observation.

The RDS is not dependent on eye relief and therefore works well with something like a PVS14. The 14 can be mounted behind the red dot in a manner similar to a magnifier. It can also be worn attached to a skull crusher and used to look through the RDS without adding a separate attaching system to the rifle.

There may be some LPVOs out there with eye relief that'll work on low power with an NVD. Anyone know of one that'll work?

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[Tokarev]

If I remember correctly Kyle has a partnership with Leupold - keep that in mind. The only time I tried DEVO was at the 2018 shot show. At first glance, the eye relief was a bit off and it took time/practice getting picture - which is OK, since at 6X one shouldn't be rushing. DEVO should work with any red dot, although LCO has the best footprint. I am guessing being too weird/expensive is what made it less popular.

I don't see Lamb endorsing a product based solely on a partnership. By that I mean I think he'd take a "can't say something nice so say nothing" approach. Leupold makes enough stuff that he could run a MK6 or VX6 and ignore the DEVO all together if he didn't like it.

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[KeeFus]

For most LE operations a red dot will fit the bill. “Way of the dinosaur”? Not so much.

This week I hosted a Carbine Instructor class offered by the FBI. Of all the LE Firearms Instructors there (12) two had LPVOs (Trijicon). Everyone else was running a dot. The FBI had, surprisingly enough, a Sig Romeo4T, which they said was their standard issue for agents, and the HRT guy was running a Micro. There were also two other Sig Romeo’s in attendance with a mix of Aimpoint and EOTech XPS. No other red dot product was present. No matter who used what speed came down to skill level. On the last day we ran a little man on man competition on distance. With all the fancy optics and variance between rifle manufacturers the winner was a guy running a M&P 15 with a PRO at 300 yards...I was actually the first person eliminated at 50 yards...go figure. We were shooting B/C zone IPSC steel.

As with everything in government cost is a huge factor. Not very many agencies will pony up enough cash to purchase a PRO ($400ish) much less a LPVO which costs much more.

ETA: LE here should reach out to their District FBI office for their Carbine Instructor class. Highly recommended.