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Thread: Portland Police's New Knife Policy

  1. #41
    Member Doug MacRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Whitlock View Post
    The TDI Hinderer knives have locking sheaths. I haven't handled one personally.

    https://www.amazon.com/KA2486-BRK-TD...r=8-1-fkmrnull
    Just wanted to note that only the newer TDI knives have locking sheaths. The older ones with the sharper handle angles don't have locking sheaths. It's a shame, too, because that's what I most liked about the old design. It was half way between a push-dagger and a straight fixed blade. I think there are after market options for retention sheaths for the old ones but they come with a standard friction lock from the factory. I wouldn't wear it on a vest because it's so obviously a knife but it makes a great concealable AIWB knife with a belt clip and a wedge on the sheath.

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    "I need your help. I can't tell you what it is, you can never ask me about it later, and we're gonna hurt some people."

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lester Polfus View Post
    And that's an example of the fact that when you have good leadership, you need fewer policies.

    Extending this policy to EMT shears was probably unnecessary. I used shears pretty frequently. It's actually a safer way to cut somebody out of a seat belt. But when you make a policy after a negative outcome, agencies often throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    Not a police officer, but I noticed this as well in the article

    The bureau also said officers no longer can carry extra magazines of ammunition for handguns or AR-15 rifles on the outside vests, with the exception of officers from the Special Emergency Reaction Team and traffic officers who ride motorcycles.

    The outside vests should be reserved for holding handcuffs, police radios, phones, hobble restraints and tourniquets, according to the three-page training memo that went to officers.
    Baby out with the bathwater indeed - I'm not seeing the logic on this additional restriction.

    ETA: Vista461 commented on this a page earlier - I only read through Page 2 when I commented.
    Last edited by BWT; 03-10-2019 at 07:27 PM.
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  3. #43
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UNM1136 View Post
    Just last week I got into a knock down drag out with drunk EDP in the ED, had her under control, preparing to move to a gurney to be restrained. In the confusion a well-meaning charge nurse gave the EDP a syringe full of night night stuff, and then had an "aw shit" moment when she pulled the needle out and realized she now had an uncapped, contaminated sharp that she now had it in close proximity to two cops, two security guards, the three more nurses, and the EDP. The nurse did not have the presence of mind to flip the plastic cap over the needle. My backup officer took the needle and immediately safed it. 25 years ago on the ambulance I would have pulled the needle out and stepped on it, pinning it under my boot till I could recap it, which was very much against protocol. She knew what she needed to do, but not ever having done it before (or even visualized it )in a violent real world situation caused her to vapor lock and fail to finish the job. To be fair, she is very good at her job, and could not be expected have even considered this scenario. During the debrief we all agreed....secure then medicate on a violent person, and if secure is a momentary respite of compliance holds, deliver the meds and make it her priority to immediately safe the needle. Not wave it around so someone would take it and safe it for you.

    pat
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone get chemical restraints IM with a needle in the ED. We place PIVs in basically everyone with a real medical/psychiatric problem once they hit a bed and can push chemical restraints through those safely with a needleless luer lock syringe.

    If someone is wilin' out without an IV, usually security/techs/SO deputies put them in 4 points +/- spit shield/bite block, then PIV is placed to get help them take a pre-detention nap.

    Don't give crazies sharps y'all.

    Edit - related - why did PPB ban exposed trauma shears? They are blunt for a reason... not sure they would be much more dangerous than a stiff pen or closed fist, but not my lane.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 03-11-2019 at 12:33 PM.

  4. #44
    Member Doug MacRay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    I don't think I've ever seen anyone get chemical restraints IM with a needle in the ED. We place PIVs in basically everyone with a real medical/psychiatric problem once they hit a bed and can push chemical restraints through those safely with a needleless luer lock syringe.

    If someone is wilin' out without an IV, usually security/techs/SO deputies put them in 4 points +/- spit shield/bite block, then PIV is placed to get help them take a pre-detention nap.

    Don't give crazies sharps y'all.

    Edit - related - why did PPB ban exposed trauma shears? They are blunt for a reason... not sure they would be much more dangerous than a stiff pen or closed fist, but not my lane.
    In smaller ED's and larger ED's that are understaffed it's quite common to give IM sedatives to people that are a danger to themselves or staff. It takes a few people to hold them down and one to administer the meds (usually a combination of a benzo, a D2 antagonist and maybe Benadryl; we used high dose ketamine in extreme circumstances i.e. a huge guy with not enough people to control him). The theory is that it's less dangerous for everyone involved to knock them down ASAP rather than wait for enough people to physically overwhelm them and put them in 4-points. Plus, trying to establish IV access in someone who is fighting you is difficult, even in full restraints. You still have the same needle risk to the provider doing this as you would giving an IM shot. Might as well put them into la-la land rather than risk injury to them or your staff trying to fight them into restraints. A slick technician can give them an IM shot without them even knowing it during a struggle.

    As for the trauma shears, I don't agree with banning them, but any pair of high quality shears are very sharp on their long edges and could easily be used as a slashing weapon when they are open. So I see the theoretical reason for banning them, but I think it's pretty silly to do so.
    "I need your help. I can't tell you what it is, you can never ask me about it later, and we're gonna hurt some people."

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BWT View Post
    Not a police officer, but I noticed this as well in the article



    Baby out with the bathwater indeed - I'm not seeing the logic on this additional restriction.

    ETA: Vista461 commented on this a page earlier - I only read through Page 2 when I commented.
    As regards external vests and reloads, at my agency, everybody with mags on their vests sucks on reloads, compared to belt-mounted pouches. There is one guy who is about as fast and the new vests we issue have kydex inserts and no flaps.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacRay View Post
    In smaller ED's and larger ED's that are understaffed it's quite common to give IM sedatives to people that are a danger to themselves or staff. It takes a few people to hold them down and one to administer the meds (usually a combination of a benzo, a D2 antagonist and maybe Benadryl; we used high dose ketamine in extreme circumstances i.e. a huge guy with not enough people to control him). The theory is that it's less dangerous for everyone involved to knock them down ASAP rather than wait for enough people to physically overwhelm them and put them in 4-points. Plus, trying to establish IV access in someone who is fighting you is difficult, even in full restraints. You still have the same needle risk to the provider doing this as you would giving an IM shot. Might as well put them into la-la land rather than risk injury to them or your staff trying to fight them into restraints. A slick technician can give them an IM shot without them even knowing it during a struggle.

    As for the trauma shears, I don't agree with banning them, but any pair of high quality shears are very sharp on their long edges and could easily be used as a slashing weapon when they are open. So I see the theoretical reason for banning them, but I think it's pretty silly to do so.
    After thinking about it for a few days, I am thinking the trauma shears were included so that if a suspect grabbed them they now have a piece of difficult to identify white metal (or black metal) in their hand that can be reasonably observed to be a blade, and now responding/backup officers come up and see what is reasonably a edged weapon armed suspect, likely in proximity to the officer the shears were taken from, and respond in accordance with their training. Not saying that shears cannot inflict injury, but is seems to be a foreseeable hazard that the department may be trying to mitigate.

    Then again, I don't work there, my agency has no such rule, nor do any of the surrounding agencies here that I know of, so I am speculating out my rear end.

    pat

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by paherne View Post
    As regards external vests and reloads, at my agency, everybody with mags on their vests sucks on reloads, compared to belt-mounted pouches. There is one guy who is about as fast and the new vests we issue have kydex inserts and no flaps.
    I use Esstac Kywi mag pouches on my vest. Open top with a kydex/polymer insert.
    Possibly the same ones?

    I previous used open top Safariland pouches when they were on my belt.
    Last edited by Vista461; 03-22-2019 at 01:19 PM.

  8. #48
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    In a single incident, I’ll bet dollars to donuts that you're more like to killed by trauma shears than a knife. It’s the same reason that screw drivers and regular scissors are more dangerous than knives. The vast majority of people with a knife flail around like a fish out of water. There aren’t many people that stab with knives and the cutting injuries look bad but are generally superficial (that's not to say that there isn't life altering damage). All you can do with screw drivers and scissors is to stab. Trauma shears may have blunt tips, but they're not all that different than a flat screwdriver and can definitely puncture deep into meat.
    Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.

  9. #49
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    My opinion on trauma shears:

    No, they're not as obviously dangerous as a knife given they're blunt, but they're still a weapon of opportunity that can be used to stab you, and when worn on an exterior vest are generally stored the typical "work zone" for both you and the subject.

    On top of that, there's zero reason whatsoever that you need open access trauma shears to begin with. Given that, just keep them inside a pouch or at least in a snapped sheath.
    Last edited by TGS; 03-23-2019 at 12:43 PM.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    My opinion on trauma shears:

    No, they're not as obviously dangerous as a knife given they're blunt, but they're still a weapon of opportunity that can be used to stab you, and when worn on an exterior vest are generally stored the typical "work zone" for both you and the subject.

    On top of that, there's zero reason whatsoever that you need open access trauma shears to begin with. Given that, just keep them inside a pouch or at least in a snapped sheath.
    I agree. If nothing else it's a real pain in the ass to wind up going hands on with somebody and have your shit go flying all over the place. I've seeen magazines and flashlights and such get dumped out of previously snapped pouches that came undone during particularly robust arrests.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

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