I recently had a suspect literally thrown into me while my hands were full of shotgun. Officer went to kick the door just as the suspect opened it, shenanigans ensued.Originally Posted by UNM1136
I'm 100% with you on single point slings. I've no desire to be bagged on a transition and then every step thereafter. I know some folks love them, I'm just not one of them.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I don't for stored guns mainly due to fire concerns. Loose ammo cooking off in a fire is basically fire crackers and presents almost no danger. Chambered ammo cooking off is a gunshot like any other. The majority of my guns are in a fire rated safe, but I don't see the need to take the, admittedly limited, risk.
Treat all guns like guns and there's nothing to change on the ingrained habit side, regardless of loaded status.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
Would you mind elaborating on this? While the sling may help greatly in retaining the long gun, I can also see where the crook could use it to toss yore behind around. (Again, I am on the fence and willing to be convinced.) Thanks in advance.
ETA: BBI - I had never considered chambered ammo cooking off in a fire. Low percentage deal there, but still. Yeah, cruiser ready, Bonus: you get to say cruiser.
Last edited by Tensaw; 03-01-2019 at 09:44 PM.
Can the crook not use it to toss you around while you are holding on to it? Answer: yes, you can be tossed and when you do you are now also disarmed. Very, very few people are trained on long gun retention and even fewer (including me) practice it very often. As such the struggle over the long gun becomes about strength and luck. If we both have both hands on the gun, we're both being pulled by the gun. If you have both hands on the gun and I can remove one hand to access a knife, or to just hammer at your eyes and get you to flinch and remove your hands to protect yourself, I keep the gun.
Homeowners who were disarmed were universally in a hallway or on the stairs. Most were one-on-one struggles, even with multiple suspects, because of the confined areas they were fighting in. If another suspect intervened at all, it was pointing a weapon at the fight and yelling. None fired into the scrum. Several lead to one party to the struggle firing the gun but hitting neither party. Almost all were situations where the homeowner COULD have shot prior to the physical confrontation but didn't. They used the gun as a tool of intimidation, not as a weapon. The exception was blindly charging toward the sounds of a door being kicked in and being surprised at how fast the intruders had made entry.
There was also a case of a homeowner disarmed while trying to remove a trigger lock, but that's not particularly relevant.
Obviously proper clearing techniques (like NOT running down a hallway port arms toward the noise) and the willingness to pull the trigger when required would eliminate most of these issues. The sling is just insurance for when you screw up or get surprised.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I'm a fan of mechanical safeties, so in the patrol car rack or at home they are safety on. Yes, it is just a trigger blocking, not a firing pin blocking, safety.
My 870s are set-up so that I have to manipulate the action release in order the work the action & chamber a round. As a left hander, it isn't an issue for my finger to manipulate the release.
I'm not of the view that running the action chamber a round is the same as "racking the action" to scare someone. I also wouldn't leave a racked or stored AR with a round in the chamber.
In the scale of suck, getting thrown by a slung firearm sucks, getting popped in the mouth with a long gun really sucks, getting choked with a sling really really sucks, getting shot in the head with your own shotgun does not suck, it is finality. You can fight your way out of things that suck and survive.
We had a house fire where some kind of semi auto firearm started going off. The fire department pulled way back and used a ladder truck to spray enough water to keep the fire from spreading and let that sucker burn itself out. I don't know if anyone has ever been shot like that, but there aren't any firefighters that will take the chance.
Whether you think you can or you can't, you're probably right.
And this is why you've heard me ... and @Tom_Jones ... lament the demise of the 590DA1 w/ a DAO trigger. The DA trigger was really no detriment (I hit clays with it to check) and I'd bet would work splendidly with the Magpul stock.
Coming from the LE side, if I have time to grab it, I have time to chamber a round. Handguns are loaded + chambered, long guns are loaded + chamber empty. I've had no cognitive disconnect with this.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
Allow me to add some context.
One is that I'm 5'5", so damn near anything muzzle down is a potential muzzle in the dirt event, and I'd probably trip over a long gun dropped straight in front. And with 32" arms, my weak hand is at the rear of a pump's forend, to the point that I normally wind up pinching my hand/pinky between it and the receiver at some point. My personal SOP is to run a SP sling over my right shoulder/under my left arm, and if the gun is not going to be in hand, I guide it to about my 0830-0900, with the right side of the receiver against my body, where it normally "catches" on my radio. The long gun is also very much a secondary weapon. I am not doing 8/10/12 hour patrols with it.
Another consideration is having a sling hang up on all the crap in our patrol cars while trying to deploy a long gun from the rack.
Due to the pump action, a forward sling mount must be all the way forward, which can still interfere with running the action if the sling is taut. At my previous agency. I had at least one guy trying to run a conventional sling on the forward swivel in conjunction with a Surefire forend, which not only blocked most of the light, but could also interfere with closing the action. With this (Fed) agency, we had money to burn at the end of the fiscal year, and as one of the instructors and THE armorer I was tasked with spending some of it on shit that was actually useful. I'd put the SF forends on our 870s the previous year. This year I added Mesa Urbino stocks (1-2 yrs before the Magpuls came out) with SP QD mounts, MCTAR-30 QD sling mounts on our ARs, and SP bungie slings w/QD buttons. Long guns were racked slick in vertical racks between the seats. I had the sling over the passenger headrest. I could grab the sling and toss it over my head en route, then upon arrival I could run it under my weak arm, grab whichever long gun I chose out of the rack, and sling it up.
My personal AR now has QD mounts at the rear of the forend and the rear of the receiver, and my Benelli M1S90 has the Urbino stock with QD sling mount. I use a Magpul MS4 dual QD sling, so I can use it either as a single point or a 2-point. I can run each gun slick or slung without much fuss.
Your mileage may obviously vary, but currently, for ME, this gear train supports my current mission. Hopefully that wasn't too rambling.
ETA links:
https://mesatactical.com/products/po...-m2-12-ga.html
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com...p/mctar-30.htm
https://www.magpul.com/products/ms4-...uctColor=VO343
Last edited by Chuck Whitlock; 03-02-2019 at 11:32 AM.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
Since the thread has now morphed to include semi-auto shotguns, I am curious as to how others keep their HD semi-auto shotguns. I am transitioning from the 870 to the Benelli M1 Super 90 for HD. I am starting with the tube loaded, a round on the carrier (HK-labeled import) for a total of 7+1, the bolt closed on an empty chamber, and the safety engaged (ON). To make the gun ready, I just need to retract and release the bolt and disengage the safety. I considered storing the gun with just a loaded tube and no round on the carrier. In that case, the shell release lever has to be depressed for the gun to feed the first round. One can cycle the bolt all day and the gun will not feed a round until it is fired after dropping a shell into the chamber or depressing the shell release. Due to the inertia action, I am not keeping extra rounds on the gun and opted for the round on the carrier.
The only extra weight is from a Surefire forearm. With the Benelli, it is not advisable to ride the bolt into battery as the bolt is likely to not fully lock into the barrel extension, leading to a failure to fire (the "Benelli click"). This example will cycle reduced recoil ammo, but one cannot ride the bolt home quietly like is doable with the 870. But I always run the 870 like I am trying to break it in order to not short stroke the gun.
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