Shtgun Strategery - Running the Pump

[RevolverRob]

There's no need to pull the trigger during admin loading or unloading, nor when you go to put a car carry shotgun into ready position. You just push the slide release and pump. It's extremely intuitive on an 870. I've not used a Mossberg in over a decade, but I don't recall any need to pull the trigger with it either.

As Norville noted below - I've always understood the definition of "cruiser ready" as hammer down, action 'unlocked'.

In scenarios of "cruiser safe" (per Norville's definitions below) I usually just punch the slide release when I prep the gun.

This is a mindset thing for me. I was taught at a young age if I pick up a pump and the action is locked, the safest assumption is the gun is loaded and ready to roll.

If I find the action unlocked, then I know it was unlocked (either by dropping the hammer or by hitting the slide release), in most instances so that it could be made ready from an empty chamber. Running the pump on an unlocked action results in a loaded gun (assuming there is ammo in the tube, which is actually the first thing I check with a shotgun (pick it up, insert finger into the loading port and feel for brass).

On a hammer cocked, unlocked action, pump it is usually possible to look down and see if brass is tucked under the extractor, as well.

I think the traditional definition of cruiser ready is with the hammer down so the action can just be cycled.

I prefer the hammer cocked and action locked, hitting the action release to cycle a round. Some call this cruiser safe.

[BehindBlueI's]

As Norville noted below - I've always understood the definition of "cruiser ready" as hammer down, action 'unlocked'.

In scenarios of "cruiser safe" (per Norville's definitions below) I usually just punch the slide release when I prep the gun.

I would suspect the reason we don't include a trigger pull, besides the fact it's superfluous, is any time the trigger is pulled there's an increased risk of a discharge due to improper clearing. I've gotten my shotgun out, chambered a round, then not fired it countless times. I then need to return it to car carry, often in a parking lot or roadside. Returning it to car carry with no trigger pull is safer.

[Chuck Whitlock]

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Also, with respect to slings on HD long guns (specifically a pump shotgun), SME's seem to differ on this. Some (Tom Givens?) say ditch the sling to eliminate the snag hazard, others seem to maintain that every long gun must have a sling. Currently, I am in the "no sling" camp, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. Again the context here is inside the confines of my residence/on my property around my residence. You may assume that a pistol is along for the ride, but that the SG will not be abandoned unless it is non-functional due to running dry or a malfunction.

Consider a single point sling instead of no sling. Reduced snag hazard if you have time to put the sling on compared to two point. It’s not as good of a sling as a two point for most things but it better than no sling.

Ready positions have been adequately covered above. I leave the gun slick, but it has a QD single-point attachment. Nothing to snag or in terfere with the action. The sling can be tossed over my head +/- shoulder and then attached or not.

[RevolverRob]

I would suspect the reason we don't include a trigger pull, besides the fact it's superfluous, is any time the trigger is pulled there's an increased risk of a discharge due to improper clearing.

I absolutely imagine that's the case. A friend of mine worked the last five years before retirement as the range master for a very large sheriff's department in Texas (I think it's the largest, maybe the second largest in the state) during their transition from shotguns to patrol rifles. The number of incidents involved negligent discharges of shotguns always struck me as terrifyingly fascinating. The biggest issue was the disconnect for folks from the fact that racking the pump and ejecting the round in the chamber, does not necessarily render the gun safe.

Apparently, they were initially taught to rack the slide back vigorously, ejecting the chambered round, and then roll the gun over and dump the round on the lifter into their hands. Then push the slide forward (no shell on the lifter) and then press the trigger. Once the hammer was down, they'd load the two ejected rounds back into the tube. I'll note this was not his policy, just the one he inherited. As you can imagine, a number of folks forgot that middle step of rolling the gun over and dumping the shell on the lifter out. Which predictably led to a number of NDs. Including a number of NDs that resulted in holes in cruisers in the parking lot. This probably could have been avoided entirely if they removed the "trigger press" portion of administrative unload.

One reason he was thankful the transition to patrol rifles was they got a chance to write the administrative handling procedures for rifles and amend the shotgun handling procedures. Since they effectively phased shotguns out of service and only into supervisors's vehicles, they also got rid of all the Remingtons in circulation and switched to Supernova Pumps. Now the admin procedure with a round in the chamber is, push the mag-tube disconnect on the forend, rack the slide, confirm the lifter is empty, push slide forward, put ejected round into tube. No trigger press, but also no additional component of pushing a partially fed round back into the tube.

[RevolverRob]

I’m really not a fan of giving verbal commands without having a gun on someone, much less eyes on. YMMV, but the whole “rack the slide to scare somebody” is already a load of bullshit, screaming from another room when you really don’t have any idea what’s happening isn’t any better.


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FYI: If you haven't read the book Tom Givens recommended a little while back about the Dallas PD Shotgun/Stakeout Squads, Holloway's Raiders there are a remarkable number of incidents where an officer jacking a round of buckshot into the gun resulted in the surrender of a badguy.

There are also a remarkable number of situations where officers missed with shotguns (perhaps not remarkable to folks who have shot a lot of shotguns, but remarkable for those that think you "can't miss").

And a number of incidents where even when officers had the drop on a bandit, they either missed their shots, or didn't take the shots.

But as it were, Holloway was not an advocate for leaving the gun on an empty chamber, nor calling out verbal commands, etc. The infamous quote by Holloway in the book is, "I don't believe in shooting a hi-jacker without warning, but I think the click an 870 coming off safe is warning enough."

[UNM1136]

FYI: If you haven't read the book Tom Givens recommended a little while back about the Dallas PD Shotgun/Stakeout Squads, Holloway's Raiders there are a remarkable number of incidents where an officer jacking a round of buckshot into the gun resulted in the surrender of a badguy.

There are also a remarkable number of situations where officers missed with shotguns (perhaps not remarkable to folks who have shot a lot of shotguns, but remarkable for those that think you "can't miss").

And a number of incidents where even when officers had the drop on a bandit, they either missed their shots, or didn't take the shots.

But as it were, Holloway was not an advocate for leaving the gun on an empty chamber, nor calling out verbal commands, etc. The infamous quote by Holloway in the book is, "I don't believe in shooting a hi-jacker without warning, but I think the click an 870 coming off safe is warning enough."

I haven't read the book, yet. I have addressed this in other threads. Times change. Rules change. TTPs change. There are lots of things that used to be done. I myself have a documented surrender with wet pants from running the bolt on my AR as I ran up on a felony stop where the suspects were initially very noncompliant.. I am not a fan of looking for trouble with an empty gun. I am not a fan of hope as a tactic.

Let me put this out there. There was a period of time in law enforcement where a suspect considered an ass beating during an arrest as par for the course. There was a time when you could shoot at unarmed, fleeing felons. Without warning. Wood shampoos existed, now without special circumstances baton strike zones are really important if you carry and use that tool. Overt surrender was their safest option. Shotguns were often the only option more powerful than a four inch .38 Special. There was a motivation to learn the shotgun and learn them well. I have not heard in years recruits being tasked to pattern their shotguns to be aware of and able to use pattern density. As the forces have diversified shotgunning became something to be tolerated, then suffered through. The largest agency in the state, (and several smaller ones reliant on them) has a court tested shotgun gual;

"On the sound of the buzzer you will take your shotgun from a half load to a full load and engage the target before you (at 10 yards) with four rounds of buckshot. You will then speed load one additional round of buckshot into the shotgun and fire it. You have 10 seconds to complete this drill. Do you have any questions? No? Shooter ready, stand by..."

Scoring was no pellets off the silhouette. Pass/Fail. Two attempts to qualify before remediation.

Bad guys know this. They have a job to do. So do I. I have way more rules to follow They just have to get away.

I don't see anyone advocating carrying a pistol with an empty chamber because the act of drawing and chambering a round can be a deterrent. Yes, there are many documented surrenders to the sound of a shotgun being racked, and the sound of an AR bolt dropping. And if you read some of the Roll Call stories people have also surrendered to drill instructor impressions, and threats to call imagined canines. Great when those things work, but they probably should not be your A answer.

Sorry, the whole noise of a shotgun being racked as a psychological advantage is a pet peeve of mine.

Another bit of food for thought surrounds a rather personal couple of stories. I used to be a big fan of hammer down mag loaded cruiser carry. Till I had a safe direction ND while chatting and trying to set the gun up. I was much more careful after that. When shotguns began to be optional and supplemental to carbines our SOPs wanted commonality of terms so we adopted the "half load". With a rifle or carbine a half load was a full mag (in training we recommend one short in the tube, or 28 in the AR, and consider either fully loaded) with a bolt locked on an empty chamber, hammer cocked and safety on. Some mentally deficient instructors advocated pulling the trigger to release the action so they could load the chamber. They were few, loud, and no one listened to them except lazy cops that refused to put in the time to learn the platform. I vastly prefer the action release on the 870, and the safety location on the Mossberg. Neither is an impediment to learning to run the gun from a half load with just a bit of time.

The second personal story is just six days ago a coworker's kid was on leave from the Army was out in the boonies shooting. He was trying to place his dad's old issued 870 into cruiser carry, believed the mag was full and chamber empty. Dad spent a while as a firearms instructor. There was a loud noise and a non safe direction ND that so far has resulted in broken bones (but no bone loss), several surgeries to include a skin graft and a week (so far) with an open, draining wound bedridden in the hospital. Pretty much a near contact wound with 00 buck.

Half load for me...

pat

[RevolverRob]

I haven't read the book, yet.

I suggest you do, it's good reading. Yes things change. Doesn't change the point that "chambering" a round has worked in the past and could work tomorrow. I'm not advocating it as a tactic - I am saying that it's not bullshit, if it's been used successfully before. It's just not necessarily relevant for most, many, etc.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating now, nor have I ever, for empty chamber carry of any firearm. Guns that are unsafe to carry loaded are about as useful as tits on a mule.

From a pure perspective - I actually don't advocate "unloaded" guns...they're pretty useless and have a tendency to create inappropriate handling habits in the people that frequently treat guns as loaded and unloaded. Every single gun in my safe is loaded, all the time. Default is that a gun you find in my house or on my person is loaded. Treat it accordingly.

Finding out this morning that most pump guns have only inertia firing pins and trigger blocks as "safeties" is actually quite distressing to me. Because a cruiser ready/cruiser safe/gun without a round in the chamber is useless until it gets a round in the chamber. Adding steps to make the gun work is not my preference in any way shape or form. Gun up, off safe, gun firing, reload. That's my preference. That's why I'll be adding heavier firing pin springs to all of my pump guns. I ordered Wolff's at lunch time today.

I can understand why certain policies have come into existence for administrative handling for issued weapons or weapons that belong to a pool, etc. For me - the people handling my guns are me and my wife. We're both capable of handling a loaded gun safely (hopefully...) and thus I'm not into "cruiser X" status for my guns at home. At this point, I'll be evaluating shotguns across the board for those with firing pin safeties.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have not heard in years recruits being tasked to pattern their shotguns to be aware of and able to use pattern density.

We still do, but not every recruit is shotgun qualified any longer. It's optional for them to go back out to the range after handguns to learn it. Shotgun qual'd officers will pattern every 2 years or so as a reminder at in-service. I don't think it's a hard/fast rule, but that's my recollection of the average.

Finding out this morning that most pump guns have only inertia firing pins and trigger blocks as "safeties" is actually quite distressing to me. Because a cruiser ready/cruiser safe/gun without a round in the chamber is useless until it gets a round in the chamber. Adding steps to make the gun work is not my preference in any way shape or form.

A stored long gun is not the answer to a "oh shit, hurry up" moment. It's not a counter-ambush tool in that context. Once it's in your hands, THEN it's a counter-ambush tool. If you don't have time to work a pump/bolt/charging handle as you pick up a long gun, you don't have time to pick up a long gun.

[RevolverRob]

A stored long gun is not the answer to a "oh shit, hurry up" moment. It's not a counter-ambush tool in that context. Once it's in your hands, THEN it's a counter-ambush tool. If you don't have time to work a pump/bolt/charging handle as you pick up a long gun, you don't have time to pick up a long gun.

I'm not sure we're in disagreement on this point.

My personal preference is to keep all guns loaded and on safe (if they have a safety). That's my ingrained habit and operating mode for all firearms. So, I'm not inclined to change that. I was a bit taken aback to learn that shotguns are not drop safe. But upon review basically all long arms are not drop safe. So, I'll just add heavier firing pin springs to my shotguns and roll on.

[UNM1136]

Ready positions have been adequately covered above. I leave the gun slick, but it has a QD single-point attachment. Nothing to snag or in terfere with the action. The sling can be tossed over my head +/- shoulder and then attached or not.

I have tried several single point slings before, and hated them. Muzzle control seems to be more work when you have to go hands on. With a two point sling I can do the barrel push over the shoulder and have the rifle or shotgun behind me without flagging anyone like with the two point sling pull around, or the pound your muzzle in the dirt position. I Hate getting smacked in the beans on a quick transition. Never had luck with single points on shotguns flipping the receiver into the body (can I say the Pat Roger's Single Point Sling Technique? I mean Uncle Pat is dead, he can't hurt me, right?) Works great with the carbine since box magazine gives more area to hold the flipped gun against the body. The shot gun's narrower receiver cause it be much less stable there.

But your solution intrigues me. I may have to give it a try. Seems like I can not consider the sling as a component of the gun and something I can choose to use if necessary. Good arrest tactics can help mitigate going hands on with a shotgun. I wonder what @DaggaBoy has to say about shotgun slings...

pat