Shotgun skill standards and competition crossover

[TCinVA]

Yes, I recall you making that point. Unless I'm getting it wrong, though, Steve said he used to time slug changeovers, but has since stopped because he found it was better to just have folks do reps than time them.

Steve mentioned that he doesn't teach much on slug select anymore because it's difficult to identify situations where slug select is a really relevant skillset for the people using the gun. Especially given the advent of flight control.

I don't work much with slug select either. I don't use it in Home Defense Shotgun because slugs are pretty inappropriate for home defense situations. I do a little bit of slug work in Shotgun Skills, but primarily so people understand how to select a slug that works for their intended purpose and that slugs don't necessarily shoot to the same point of aim as buckshot.

Tim, I'm not trying to get on you or anyone else's bad side here, I promise. This isn't about me saying how awesome I am or anything. I've said in almost every post that there are better folks than me and I'm just looking to improve. I started this thread by naming several folks, you included, that I consider experts on the shotgun and looking for direction for improvement.

From what I heard in the podcast, most of what you and the others see in class are beginner shooters who just struggle to manage recoil, feed the gun, and run the gun. OK, got it. That's the same thing we see in beginner pistol classes too. But at some point we have more advanced pistol classes for guys who know how to do that stuff and we begin to push them and teach them how to push themselves for faster draws, faster transitions, sight tracking under recoil, faster reloads, and all the other skills.

From my Shotgun Skills course description:

The basics will be reinforced, but students will be pushed to improve speed and accuracy with the shotgun on single targets, challenging multiple target arrays, and in competitive timed shooting. The course is designed to take the user from basic competence with a shotgun into true proficiency with the most powerful defensive firearm readily available in the United States. Shotgun Skills will also cover the application and use of slugs, use of the shotgun in close quarters, and the basics of approaching corners with a long gun. At the end of the day students will shoot an abbreviated slug and buckshot qualification similar to law enforcement shotgun qualification courses for the shotgun.

I try to make people who are competent in the defensive use of a shotgun into people who are proficient by pushing their speed, accuracy, and manipulations.

But I do it from a defensive focus, meaning using guns people actually use for duty or defensive use and the equipment that is realistic for their task.

I talk in depth about manipulations...but the manipulations are based on working with realistic carry of spare ammunition and successfully getting it into the gun under even adverse conditions by using techniques that are slower than anything you will find in 3 gun, but that tend to work splendidly well under any conditions and, crucially, work really well when people aren't doing hours of dryfire to sustain them. They're focused on making sure people aren't dropping a shell that they likely need pretty badly since time is of the essence and they aren't carrying very many spares.

So it has no value to a 3 gunner.

[Kevin B.]

...........

[TheRoland]

And it was true. The handguns being used in competition even in the late 1980's looked nothing like the guns people were carrying for defensive use.

https://americanhandgunner.com/wp-co...8/12/HND87.pdf

Even the revolvers were tricked out.

What did carry over was the ability to shoot accurately at speed...

We might be saying the same thing here, but the point isn't that they were not different, it's that the hardware, the innovations, the techniques carried over until they weren't that different. The lessons learned tricking out a steel-challenge 1911 in the 80s informed the features that, say, FBI HRT eventually wanted in a 1911, when that was a thing. This does't seem to have happened to tactical shotguns yet, or at least, not as much.

I don't know what innovations for shotguns are worth carrying over or the mechanics of them. But I have to wonder if there might be ways of setting up twin-loading off of a saddle, or producing a saddle to hold stacks of shells, for example.

[BigT]

Even if your going to load rounds singly with your weak hand, an opened up loading port makes that a hellava lot easier and less likely to go wrong.

Fwiw in IPSC shotgun as opposed to 3 gun (which I'm guessing) is a rarity there, you aren't reloading on 50% of your stages unless something goes horribly wrong. And unless its even more wrong its one round off your matchsaver. But all the recoil control , driving the gun and understanding your pattern while shooting past tight no shoots translates really well into useful real world skill. In the stages were i do reload I reload like the gaymer I am, because not doing so is tactically unsound, and still get lots more benfit to my ability to run the gun well, than detriment.

[RevolverRob]

I'm the only one who puts a couple of shell holders on his belt when running a shotgun for reloads?

Not in lieu of ammo on the gun, but in addition to it. Seems kind of simple to me and I find it much faster to get shells from the belt line into the gun than from a side saddle or butt cuff (not that either of those is slow). It just adds to the versatility. And gives you some spare ammo to use, too.

[RevolverRob]

But I have to wonder if there might be ways of setting up twin-loading off of a saddle, or producing a saddle to hold stacks of shells, for example.

I was thinking about that too, the problem is most twin-loads use the strong hand to reload, not the weak hand. It can be done weak hand, but without turning the shotgun at least 90-degrees (say port to the ground for a right handed shooter), chances are good you'll drop as many shells as you load. And then you'd setup a rig that sort of looked like a quad-stack caddy with the shells horizontal to the ground and basically end up with four shells on the side of the gun (instead of six vertically). Then there is the matter of topping up after only one round is fired. That's where your load-two approach becomes a weakness. Also the twin-load speed, requires fairly loose grip on the shell brass. I can't imagine you won't be dropping shells from recoil.

I'd say load-twos setup on the belt are a better choice, but again, loose grip on shells can result in lost shells pretty easily.

[ASH556]

I'm the only one who puts a couple of shell holders on his belt when running a shotgun for reloads?

Not in lieu of ammo on the gun, but in addition to it. Seems kind of simple to me and I find it much faster to get shells from the belt line into the gun than from a side saddle or butt cuff (not that either of those is slow). It just adds to the versatility. And gives you some spare ammo to use, too.

Yep! I use those. In competition depending on the stage they're my "special ammo" (slugs, buck) carriers.

[ASH556]

Bill Blowers talks about using twins to top off a breaching shotgun with good success here:

https://primaryandsecondary.com/foru...d-loading.372/

[TheRoland]

I was thinking about that too, the problem is most twin-loads use the strong hand to reload, not the weak hand. It can be done weak hand, but without turning the shotgun at least 90-degrees (say port to the ground for a right handed shooter), chances are good you'll drop as many shells as you load. And then you'd setup a rig that sort of looked like a quad-stack caddy with the shells horizontal to the ground and basically end up with four shells on the side of the gun (instead of six vertically). Then there is the matter of topping up after only one round is fired. That's where your load-two approach becomes a weakness. Also the twin-load speed, requires fairly loose grip on the shell brass. I can't imagine you won't be dropping shells from recoil.

I'd say load-twos setup on the belt are a better choice, but again, loose grip on shells can result in lost shells pretty easily.

I have to say, despite your reservations, which are all valid, all I can think about today is how to attach a twin-load plate to a vecro saddle.

[OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor]

Anyone notice ‘sides me that a cat named DB is noticeably absent in this discussion?